Man Hours for Certain Jobs?

namtrak said:

I've had and currently got a foot in both camps.

As a tradie, I would never, ever work for an hourly rate. I supply the tools, disposables, finishes, pay taxes, employ subbies - and I have to do that all within my quote. I always walk away when potential clients start talking about hourly rates and what they think I can work for. (not that it happens often)

On the other hand, for any reno I do personally, I always prefer to pay tradies/mates an hourly rate. And I supply all materials. They can come and go as they like and as long as they do they job well and in good time I have no dramas. Once you start getting quotes you are starting to create two opposing dichotomies. Those who quote what the job is worth and what they need to make to be profitable (generally quoting themselves out of the job), and those who quote at the lowest price they can afford (creating shortcuts and potential quality issues)

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That is a really honest post, but I'm curious to know if you like paying by the hour because you load up your quotes and you know other tradies will be doing that?

Our son had quotes recently for floor sanding. Two quotes were for $3.5K for a job that I thought would come in under $2K. The third quote was $2K and that is the one he will accept.

I was basing this on the last floor sanding job we had done which was a smaller job, and was about $1.5K.

So, I'm thinking the other two quotes were loading their quote up because they saw a young, inexperienced chap and thought they would try one on. I was hoping floor sanding had not jumped up so much in price that the $2K quote was not because he will cut corners and do a rubbish job. Time will tell.

Our regular plumber has given a rough ballpark figure for the plumbing work involved and will charge only for time spent, so it is an hourly rate, but this is a plumber who has done so much work for us that there is a trust involved going both ways.

If you refuse to quote by the hour, how do you feel asking tradies to do what you will not do? I'm not being smart, but really curious how you marry up the two opposing positions you hold?

I was having a chat with the handy man who worked on my last project for a few hours at the end to do a simple job, and he said "he prefers to work by hour instead of quoting, and if he quoted, he would make sure he puts a lot of extra hours/margin in it, in case **** hits the fan during the job"

he hinted at up to double, or $3k for a $2k job

wylie said:

That is a really honest post, but I'm curious to know if you like paying by the hour because you load up your quotes and you know other tradies will be doing that?.............
If you refuse to quote by the hour, how do you feel asking tradies to do what you will not do? I'm not being smart, but really curious how you marry up the two opposing positions you hold?

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My industry quotes by the square metre. And there are some stark regional differences. Sydney is the cheapest, with some guys doing the job from around $15 per sqm. Caveat Emptor!!!

Canberra is probably the dearest around $40 per sqm. I start my pricing at $40 and it goes up for complex floors (carpets, lots of nails, black jappanning, small rooms etc) and goes down for simple floors (new timber, big rooms etc)

I have sat down and looked at the pricing that guys in Sydney are offering and I couldn't even get close to it. I think they are cutting corners with quality and using cheaper finishes, but that is just supposition (and heresay). Personally I spend a lot of time doing a floor properly and prefer to use the more expensive non-toxic and non-yellowing finishes.

Having said all of that though, the price in Canberra is dropping at the moment as work has completely dried up over the last 6 months.

As for asking tradies to work for an hourly rate I have no dramas at all - they can find work elsewhere. I am generally only using guys Ive known for a long time.

china said:

Generally, tradies in this country are quite difficult to deal with. They charge a lot, do not turn up at appointed time, disappear without warning, do half jobs, leave a mess and are often disinterested when questioned.

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I'm a tradesman and when I have to work for a customer that watches everything I do, tries to help out to save me time, asks how much longer I'm going to be, watches me eat my lunch, not offer a coffee if they're making one, then yes THAT'S EXACTLY HOW TRADESMEN WILL ACT WHEN THEY WORK FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU.

I had one customer change her mind (after it was wired) from 4x downlights per room to a fan/light combo in 6 rooms. She asked how much cheaper it would be because she just halves the amount of lighting points ....



I swear this thread comes up weekly.
"Hey so are there any sparkies that want to come wire my house for $30/hr (I work in a supermarket so I get paid $20 an hour so $30 is fair I think) and I will supply you with a pair of pliers and half a roll off xlpe, half a roll of speaker cable, 10m of power cable and i don't know what this one is but you might need it. Also can I have a discount for cash?"

JWR, Im going to give you an offer you cant refuse:

Im offering to tile your house for $1/hr as a tradesman, and then my standard hourly rate for my 2 labourers to help me with the job.

What do you say?

pinkboy

Anyway, to the original poster, good luck because you are absolutely going to need it.

Seriously, every single person isn't telling you to not do it because they jealous of you saving the magical 40% from a builders quote you assume you can do it for. Everyone here is genuinely helpful and they are trying to save you SEVERE stress, delays and extra costs.

But after this if you still want to try and get your tradies to work for $x and you supply everything, have fun. You'll look back and think "hey in the last 2.5 years I spent building one bad house I probably could have achieved a lot more (plus donated the money I wasted to a needy charity).


P.S. Where do you draw the line on supplying things, if the bricky rocks up in his undies will you buy him boots, clothes, a hat, sunscreen, sunglasses?

P.P.S.

unskilled/semi skilled labourers

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is a MASSIVE kick in the teeth for those trades. You'll find that any old unskilled labourer CAN do it, I reckon I could even do all the with my eyes closed. It definitely won't resemble anything that you could call a good job.. Not even an average job..

i would not do per hour basic on items like plumbing, unless it is a quick fix as plumbers do charge per quarter of an hour. Handyman stuff which is a couple of hours is ok and if you do flooring and tiling it is normally per sqm.

with hourly rates, i just don't have the time to monitor the trades. So it is more a time management thing. If building was a full time job - it would be different. Some are as dodgy as hell - not turning up or like having long breakfast breaks. if something is not done properly and you try to get them to fix it, they add extra hours onto it. say even floorboards or forgot to put the skirting on.

Secondly, if they quote on something at least you can make them come back till to fix it without paying more. i realize majority of trades get defensive when it comes to coming back to fix issues. i normally stress that they won't get paid till they fix it. Other fast ones are like hey can i get cash? i'm losing money if i pay you GST and i have to add 10-15% more if you need an invoice. pretty uneducated statement if you ask me .they want to claim GST on their fuel, tools, supplies but refused to do the same for customers.

i would suggest the OP getting an understanding of a building act and regulations before embarking. the key is communication to ensure that they understand who is paying them, your expectations etc. if it is not working out especially with trades who do bad workmanship or delays- best to cut a trade than to delay the overall project.

Currently, the only really trade which i have 100% no issues is my painter. close to 20 jobs fast, efficient and no errors. Sometimes i pay him a bit more for staying back to finish up stuff.

JWR, why don't you get your uncle and grandfather to do it? May be they might beat Pinkboy's $1/hr offer? Can't get better!

MsAli,

Ironically they don't want to get paid peanuts either! They are already successful in their cabinet making business so would rather focus on that...

They will help over the phone and will prob be on site 5 times or so during the build but that's it.


Terrence,

I will not try to micro-manage my tradies - but before hand I will try to get an estimate from my grandfather as to how long each job should take - and I will speak to tradies before hand as to how their estimates of time etc... then will have a beer with them after the day is over! I won't question their work either as they are the professionals and not me. I understand my limitations.

I don't wish to diminish the efforts of tradies at all - some things though don't require a 4 year apprenticeship (like painting for example.) Other things such as gyprocking, tiling, flooring will be done by those I employ. We won't know what to do but we will learn (which will take a little time) instead of paying $50/hr. And these will be people I know and trust.

Pinkboy,

It depends how much you charge for your labourers - but if my brother and I can be your labourers for free you are on!


Reality Cheque,

I understand completely what you are saying and fully agree - I am quite overbearing at times but my brother is not. So he will be handling the tradies more than I will.


PS - have some school friends who will come and help me for either free or $15-20 cash/hr during our uni holidays (plus me paying for their accom and food) and we will have a great time!

I appreciate everyone's help and know it won't be a walk in the park. However I am determined to have a go and see if I can do it for a better than average price.

JWR said:

MsAli,

Ironically they don't want to get paid peanuts either! They are already successful in their cabinet making business so would rather focus on that.

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Why would any othe builder work for peanuts when your own flesh and blood refuse to?

wylie said:

Why would any othe builder work for peanuts when your own flesh and blood refuse to?

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Ive tried to remain positive for JWR but that my dear friend is a clanger quote...!

JWR is not taking no for an answer so it will be interesting to see how this does work out.

Make sure you keep us posted JWR.

Lol the only reason I am taking no for an answer is because paying full rates still = profit.

Will be paying electrician/plumber etc... $50/h or so - but the rest will be a lot less because its achievable.

I know I am naive and clueless BUT I am determined to succeed as well

Just to put my pay by the hour rates in perspective.

For a chippie, handyman with tools etc I am happy to pay $50/60 per hour and will always save money. For our renos, I always budget around 50% of the costs to be labour and 50% materials - loosely speaking. Always seems to be around that mark

For experienced guys working with me floor sanding (I provide everything) I am happy to pay $40/50 per hour and will still make money. I know other guys are paying $18/25 per hour - but I need to guarantee quality so I am happy to pay for it

JWR said:

Pinkboy,

It depends how much you charge for your labourers - but if my brother and I can be your labourers for free you are on!

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You kinda passed my little test, asking how much my labourers were, however, you didnt ask wether I was licenced, insured, pulling your leg etc. I might not even be a quality tradesman, did you ask for references, referals from past clients?

Obviously I would not work for $1/hr if you and your brother were my labourer, whats in it for me? NOTHING Let this be the lesson that any other tradie is going to respond to. You take away their bread and butter, whats the point of being a contractor! If you were to engage me to do your works, Id see you from a mile away......

pinkboy....$107.40/hr per labourer

pinkboy said:

pinkboy....$107.40/hr per labourer

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Plus travel expenses from Mackay!

I'm pretty sure Pinkboy will be ready to help when JWR decides to install a swimming pool for his PPOR :-D

Edmond Dantes said:

I'm pretty sure Pinkboy will be ready to help when JWR decides to install a swimming pool for his PPOR :-D

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Speaking of swimming pool, mine only has a day to completion, pity that day is next week!

I think JWR will be far too tight to engage a pool builder. There is nothing cheap in a pool, and if 1 single shortcut is taken then all you end up with is a huge $200k cracked coffee mug!

pinkboy

pinkboy said:

Speaking of swimming pool, mine only has a day to completion, pity that day is next week!

I think JWR will be far too tight to engage a pool builder. There is nothing cheap in a pool, and if 1 single shortcut is taken then all you end up with is a huge $200k cracked coffee mug!

pinkboy

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true.. nice if you could post pics in another thread. and good luck with the training!

With my PPOR my future wife will have the final say so will prob have to spend a few million on renovations to make her happy.

So you have the contract in 15 years Pinkboy!

As for the $1/h - obvi you were joking so no need to ask your credentials etc... but if you change your mind unlicensed or not I am happy to do business

JWR said:

As for the $1/h - obvi you were joking so no need to ask your credentials etc... but if you change your mind unlicensed or not I am happy to do business

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When I wrote that last night I wasnt joking, as long as you agreed, I would have kept to my word of $1/hr, as long as you agreed to pay for my men to assist!

With my PPOR my future wife will have the final say so will prob have to spend a few million on renovations to make her happy.

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Sucker....a wife is never happy, hope you have more than a few $million!

So you have the contract in 15 years Pinkboy!

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I am retired from pool building, even before my own is finished!


pinkboy