Man Hours for Certain Jobs?

[evand]

Good advice. If a customer looks after his tradesmen, pays well and on time, they'll look after him. The inverse s true also.

Save yourself the headaches of doing it "cheap" and take on the mindset of doing it "well" with maximum efficiency. Look after your workers and pay them fair rates and you will reap the benefits of their satisfaction of fairness from you. Everyone enjoys a fair go so enter into this spirit. Tradies dislike misers and bargain pushers and will lose interest in their work if a customer is miserly.

I could go on with more advice but, I guess, you will soon learn once you get going. Everyone here is providing good advice based on their experience. It's up to you if you want to make the same mistakes we have made in the past before accepting the advice.

 

[Tools]

You're kidding yourself if you think that any trade is going to come running to you when you are trying to take advantage of them. You seem to think you would be doing them a favour by offering them a few days work and that they would feel as if they need to halve their rate for you! If you did find someone desperate enough to be interested they will walk as soon as something better comes along and you will be left with a half finished job that you will struggle to find anybody else to touch.

If trades were as easy and overpaid as you think then everybody would be doing it.

Tools

 

[JWR]

Thanks all for the tips,

I do want to pay everyone what they deserve - my definition of deserve is only $30/h though. I think $60-100+ p/h is ridiculous to be honest.

Appreciate all the advice and will look hard for what I am after!

Evan,

I am building a whole house from scratch so will need enough labour from each tradie for a whole house.

Obviously I have no experience with handling these things but shall try my best! I know I will make many mistakes which is why I want to do it slowly and methodically.

Regarding hiring an Apprentice or 2 - my idea would be to put an ad in the paper to 'work on weekends for cash'. Therefore my two busiest days will be the weekends and during the week I can maybe just have the things done that need specialist labour (which I won't skimp on!)

Also note I will most probably dedicate a few months full time to this - so won't exactly be passive.

I'm thinking the retired builders are the 'pros' I need as they won't be money hungry and I won't need them to do everything on a very tight budget. They can have their coffee, do things at a slightly more leisured pace and remember the 'good old days' when they were working the field.

Finding these kinds of workers is the hard part

If anyone has done this kind of thing before let me know please

 

[evand]

Apprentices can't work alone in a lot f trades. I've already sorted that.

Good luck with it, it's gonna take you forever at the way you are thinking of buiding.

Why not just get a builder, it'll probably end up cheaper in the long run and you can get on with making money elsewhere.

I don't know where people get the idea they can build on the cheap when they are not at all associated with the building industry. And In short time with great end product. It just doesn't happen.

 

[The Fence]

You're on a hiding to nothing.

Ev and I are poles apart on most things but this I totally agree with.

To get trades for the prices you are asking you need to have been in the game for quite awhile and have more work available than what you are proposing but most of all have a thorough and detailed knowledge of the building process, rules and regs etc etc.

Let us know how it goes though....as everytime I came across this it always ended in disaster with a builder having to come in and clean it all up with the overall cost blown completely out.

Listen to Evand on this it's good sound advice.

 

[Edmond Dantes]

Thanks all for the tips,

I do want to pay everyone what they deserve - my definition of deserve is only $30/h though. I think $60-100+ p/h is ridiculous to be honest.
)

I think this is where you'll run into trouble. This is not a win-win situation, and your tradies will walk out as soon as they find someone that can pay them what they deserve.

I sort of agree with you. 60/hr is a lot of $, but everything is so expensive in this country. Would you apply for a job if your employer is offering half because he thinks you dont deserve a normal rate?

I read somewhere about a guy who organised a tourist visa for an asian worker. Guy camw to the country and painted his house considerably cheaper than a local had quoted. Although it may be harder for what you are after -building, insurance, etc- perhaps may be worth researching?

Good luck

 

[pinkboy]

I cant watch this implosion go on much longer JWR.

Im not going to sugar coat this for you son: Go out and get yourself an education!

You have obviously have NFI how the industry works. You are proposing something that just doent exist; tradie prices are not dictated by the client, tradies are going to sting you either on an hourly rate basis or a quote (they will build in some 'fat') as said above. They will not do anything on a thin margin for a once off effective granny flat build here like you are proposing. Thin margins are for volume - less volume = higher margin.

Contractors do not pay their employees the same rate they charge - you just cant see past this can you? Tradies 'deserve' $30/hr? You are deadset kidding yourself, and insult the intelligence of any tradie on the forum or anywhere else for that matter. I can only imagine what you 'deserve'.

In one hand you say you want the project to run smoothly and as quick as possible to relieve you of holding cost, then in the next breath a 'retired' tradie who can potter along at his own pace but cheap is good enough.

You are young and keen, but you are bouncing down a path that just doesnt exist.

SPEED; QUALITY; PRICE < Choose 2, because you cant have all 3.

pinkboy....dual tradie!

 

[Rockstar]

I do want to pay everyone what they deserve - my definition of deserve is only $30/h though. I think $60-100+ p/h is ridiculous to be honest.

Appreciate all the advice and will look hard for what I am after!

You don't realise how hard you will be looking!

James, my plumber and sparkie are both the highest earners on hourly rate. My chippy charges around $45/hr. I have never heard of any tradie around here earning over $66/hr though some of the tradies who charge per sqm would be earning higher rates at times depending on their efficiency and degree of site and project parameters. I would suggest you go owner builder on a house and try a combination of quotes and hourly rate and learn from the experience. Many successful developers are paying their tradies the going rates and making good profits. If costs are the problem then you need to find a more feasible project where the final profit margin stacks up. No use forcing the figures to work by cutting costs and seeking under market wages. And beware, there are reasons that some tradies are "cheap"

 

[weg]

Even I'm agreeing with Evand on ALL points .

I doubt the savings will be that great, after taking everything into consideration.

Get yourself a reliable, budget end builder instead.

They build full houses for peanuts, especially if you keep to the basics and don't have too many variations.

 

[locko24]

Hi JWR

I'm betting a lot of tradies working for companies aren't on $60+ an hour.
Try that builder app on iphone - post a job and get back numerous quotes.

Also try putting an ad in the local rag for 'moonlighters'.

Nothings impossible - i like your way of thinking.

 

[locko24]

Also, you'd be surprised how many retired sparkies and other tradies work at Bunnings!

 

[JWR]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the feedback.

I realise I have NFI but I will do my best!

If worst comes to worst I can pay the exuberant rates being charged by these tradies and still make a great profit - but obviously my preference is to get it done as cheap as possible.

I've looked into builders and I think I can complete for nearly half that rate - as what I want (120sqm, 4bdr, ensuite, garage) is around $150k - I think I can do it for 80-100k max.

Pinkboy,

My education will come from this project (which is why I am doing it) - so I know there will be mistakes along the way but I'm sure I will get there in the end.

I'm not looking for super speed as the holding costs won't be very high - so am willing to go slow to learn and make sure its done properly (and cheaply!)

Gumtree offers some good solutions... I think it can be done!

 

[DaveM]

I've looked into builders and I think I can complete for nearly half that rate - as what I want (120sqm, 4bdr, ensuite, garage) is around $150k - I think I can do it for 80-100k max.

The risk you run is that a shoddily built house will be obviously shoddily built to valuers and future buyers. The $ you save now might well cost you in the long term through lower future value/saleability.

I am also concerned at your idea of paying apprentices/labourers cash in hand to build it. For a start without receipts it will making costing/depreciation far harder to do. Secondly they will likely do a terrible job. Third and most importantly, if you are acting as the owner builder and have no insurances for the workers working for cash, and someone gets injured or dies, you can say goodbye to that house, your other houses, your car and your income for years to come, or possibly jail time.

I dont think you are onto a bad idea with doing a new build, it sounds like there is some good money in it for you. But you seriously need to get your costing right. Wishinig hard enough that you can build a brand new 4br home for $80k will not make it happen.

Other builders in this very forum have categorically stated that they cannot build the house, at cost price using the cheapest materials, for under $150k. They have a lot more knowledge of whats needed, I would getting mileage from their advise rather than working under the assumption you can get workers and materials for $2 and then build a house after doing a few hour tafe course.

 

[pennyk]

Also consider if you are paying by the hour, and using less skilled tradies that it wont take long for it to cost more than it would by paying a higher rate for an experienced person who works faster.
I saw this with my nightmare removalist experience. The guys who had never done a move before were so slow, it took around 5 hours longer than it should have, and I was paying for those hours!
So, I would get a fixed quote, rather than an hourly rate.

and definitely look into the insurance issue that Dave raised. there are some things that are not worth skimping on.

 

[pennyk]

Also, keep in mind the long term. Are you likely to want to use these tradies again in the future.
We are in the middle of renos. the builder we're using has done 2 bathrooms and some other jobs for us before, and from my referrals, he's gotten at least 5 other jobs. The painter has painted our old house, my mothers house and now is doing this house.
Both of them are now giving us good pricing, throwing in extras without charge, not requiring deposits etc.
I see it as a long term relationship. Neither of them were the cheapest, but in the long term, we are seeing benefits.
If you are just looking for the cheapest, and are always querying the price, the tradies you use wont do work for you again, and you'll have to start from scratch every time you want to do some work.
Maybe paying a bit more now is worth it in the future.

 

[weg]

We have these 'gold' tradies we've developed a relationship with too, and they charge us petty low rates nowadays, and do extras, and hang around for a coffee and chat (husband has done stuff for them too) .

I often have people ask me for their number, yet refuse to pass them on to just anyoine, especially if I think the person will try to take advantage of their good nature - would reflect badly on me, plus I like to protect them from those I think will try to screw them if they think they can get away with it, or waste their time .

These tradesmen I know are always busy, so they are not desparate for work, yet always find time to do your job IF they like working for you. I don't even ask for a quote anymore.

Makes life much easier than hanging around waiting for tradesmen to turn up for quotes, then not knowing the quality of the work till it's done.

 

[china]

Generally, tradies in this country are quite difficult to deal with. They charge a lot, do not turn up at appointed time, disappear without warning, do half jobs, leave a mess and are often disinterested when questioned.

 

[Stacey Survey]

Thanks all for the tips,

I do want to pay everyone what they deserve - my definition of deserve is only $30/h though. I think $60-100+ p/h is ridiculous to be honest.

I'm sure if you supplied the work vehicles, overheads, tools, materials, insurances etc then you might get away with paying $30 an hour.

Running a business in any sort of trade is expensive, it's not like just rocking up to an established company and getting paid an hourly rate. I think getting a tradie in for $60-$100 an hour and you're doing very well!

 

[Corey Batt]

Generally, tradies in this country are quite difficult to deal with. They charge a lot, do not turn up at appointed time, disappear without warning, do half jobs, leave a mess and are often disinterested when questioned.

I have never had this issue before, with sparkies, plumbers, labourers or carpenters. I do run off referrals and previous job examples. I also don't try to screw them on price.

 

[The Fence]

I'm sure if you supplied the work vehicles, overheads, tools, materials, insurances etc then you might get away with paying $30 an hour.

Reminds me of Nathan.

But then again he's networked his trades for years and does all the above as well as look after them well, so it actually does cost him more but his one off costs (tools etc) have been paid for many times over as he uses in multiple projects, not one off like the OP's project.

Still, I guess you gotta start somewhere and if you pull it off then good for you.
But you have been warned of the pitfalls.