Man Hours for Certain Jobs?

[JWR]

Hi everyone,

I am trying to build a new house on some land and costing out the prices for everything.

When you recieve quotes they are $xyz in return for providing xyz goods/services.

Never though are they broken down into time taken for each role.

I was wondering how I can accurately determine approximately how long each job should take (being a novice in all things trade/building related )

For example - wiring the whole house. I have received wild variations in quotes for supposedly the same thing.

My idea would be to employ the electrician/s on an hourly basis and provide all materials myself - thus hopefully saving a lot of money.

Then again they may work half as slow and then the cost doubles!

So if I could work out how long it SHOULD take and then compare fixed price quotes with what it would cost to employ tradies p/h I should be ahead.

Is there anyway of obtaining this info?

Many thanks,
James

 

[evand]

You wont get a sparkie to work for an hourly rate and you buy the materials. You're taking money out of his pocket. Or if you do manage to get one, he wont be a good one.

Don't worry about hourly rates and time. Just get them to give you a detailed, itemised quote and make sure they're all quoting on the same thing. Make sure theyre licenced and insured.

As far as obtaining the info, just ask each sparkie 'how long?". Its a hard question as the job will need to be done in stages. Rough in, fit out, testing, inspection, connection to mains etc

 

[JWR]

Thanks Evan,

That makes sense.

I really would like to get the cheapest prices possible though as I'm on a very tight budget - so providing materials and paying an hourly rate seems the best thing for me (this is what Nathan does so I know it works).

Just would like to be able to gauge how long things should take and then find the cheapest materials and the cheapest but good quality tradie.

 

[weg]

Are you legally able to supervise the trades to build a house?

If you are, you should also have some idea about what it'll cost you and how tradesmen work.

 

[JWR]

I'm going to do the owner builders course - is that enough?

Regardless my grandfather is a licensed carpenter/kitchen maker so he will do the supervising.

I want to learn though so want to organise everything myself with him just 'checking up on me'.

 

[Rockstar]

Mate, if you have a heap of time to potter and learn as you go owner builder then, maybe you can source cheaper materials but I have never done it with a sparkie. I do supply my plumber with materials through an account with Eagles and he charges me hourly rate (66/hr). If you go the hourly rate option you have to have plenty of trust with the tradie or be there looking over their shoulder to ensure their hours are accurate and they are working efficiently. I get quotes from sparkie and chippy for most work. I pay my concretors $20 per sqm labour and buy the steel and concrete. They form up for that rate with their own materials. I have used tilers and roofers on hourly as well as $ per sqm prices.

It's great to get seriously involved in the first couple of builds. After that you can become more managerial rather than hands on as you know how it all ticks and can coordinate the process as a result of your gained experience.

 

[JWR]

Hi Rockstar,

I definitely want to balance paying bottom dollar and getting it done quickly - as every week its not completed costs $$$ and no rent comes in.

So I want to plan it well before commencement so it only takes 3 months or so rather than 3 years

$66 seems an awful lot of money for an hour to me! For a whole house surely their rate could be halved or better?

What about hiring apprentices and only one professional on the higher rate to save money? Has anyone done this before?

 

[Jake D]

$66 seems an awful lot of money for an hour to me! For a whole house surely their rate could be halved or better?

I know plenty of tradies who would walk away swearing if you tried to get them to work for $66 an hour. If I got quoted that much, I'd be stoked.

 

[SOULFLY3]

Will you know what materials the sparkies will require? You wont want them sitting round as you run back and forth to supplier..

I highly doubt any Qualified electrician with tickets will work for 33$ an hour...

Its like landscaping and a client goes ohh Ill supply the material..
example; your either left with not enough pavers or too many etc or require more sand and the client kicks up a fuss.
At the end of the day get an itemized quote
and as mentioned above make sure everyone's quoting on same works


I only work hourly rates for mates.
Every bodies gotta make a $

 

[JWR]

I understand what you guys are all saying but if a tradie has a guaranteed job for a few weeks surely they are negotiable on their hourly rates?

i.e. plumber, electrician, builders, carpenters, plasterers, roofer etc...

$30/h = $1200 p/w (40 hours) - which is a pretty good amount in my eyes.

The tradies could tell me what materials to buy and I could buy it for them (to save on time and builders margins.)

The only way it would work I think is to get one tradie at normal rates (say $50/h) and hire 2 or 3 apprentices at $20 or so an hour.

I understand there are risks involved if the apprentices have NFI!

Has anybody done this kind of thing before with success?

 

[Jake D]

$30/h = $1200 p/w (40 hours) - which is a pretty good amount in my eyes.

That's roughly $60k a year. For a 40 hour week. Do you know any tradies in residential construction? How many of them do you reckon earn under $100k a year? How many do you reckon work past 2 in the afternoon? I think if you asked for some hourly rates you'd be massively surprised. (and still have the trust issues everyone has mentioned previously)

(I'm using $100k here as the low end of the scale, too. Most are a fair amount above that. A roof plumber that I used to work with would average $1000 a day profit and NEVER worked past 3pm. A ceiling fixer I laboured for on a handful of occasions paid me $40 an hour - completely unskilled in that field)

 

[JWR]

Don't know anyone in the construction field aside from my granfather and uncle - so it makes me both naive and inexperienced - but I am willing to learn.

Maybe in WA where the mining boom is in full swing tradies can charge miners rates but in NSW where there is hardly any new building at the moment I think the tradies will be competitive in pricing.

To me 100k is the higher end of the scale in terms of pricing.

When charging $100/h they will not always have work all day every day. So if they had a guaranteed job for a few weeks I'm sure they would be more competitive...

I know I will have to make some concessions and I think the apprentice idea is a good one.

What do you guys think?

 

[Corey Batt]

JWR: they are right, even $66/hr would be bottom end.

$30/hr, heh. They've also got to pay GST, super, transport, tools etc. And as mentioned, trying to tell them that working 40 hours as a benefit, haven't talked to enough tradies before it seems.

I'd rather work 24 hours at $66/hr for three days a week, than $30/hr for 40 hours.

 

[JWR]

Even so I am used to having to be creative to keep costs extremely low - and I have to given my age, income and budget.

I'm sure I will find someone willing to do it at a 'normal rate' eventually.

I think the apprentice idea is the most feasible way.

Or retired tradies for cash?

Or TAFE students looking to do a 'class project'?

 

[pennyk]

Maybe in WA where the mining boom is in full swing tradies can charge miners rates but in NSW where there is hardly any new building at the moment I think the tradies will be competitive in pricing.

To me 100k is the higher end of the scale in terms of pricing.

When charging $100/h they will not always have work all day every day. So if they had a guaranteed job for a few weeks I'm sure they would be more competitive...

I know I will have to make some concessions and I think the apprentice idea is a good one.

What do you guys think?

I'm in Sydney, and doing a PPOR reno. All of our tradies are juggling multiple jobs.. they are very busy. The builder, electrician, painter and floor sander have all been the same..juggling jobs... going from one to another, working weekends. I think there is plenty of renovation work around. I dont think the promise of several weeks work would be enough to get much cheaper prices. If a tradie wasnt busy, I would be concerned that they werent very good.

Also, keep in mind that builders can usually get trade pricing on materials, so you are likely to be paying more if you buy it yourself. eg we bought a new oven as part of our reno. The RRP was over $2500. Our builder charged us $1300.... he was able to get bulk pricing cause of a development he is doing.

It also adds to their work/ costs if you buy the materials. I bought quite a lot of stuff for our bathroom reno in our previous PPOR.. I dont think it saved us anything, cause the builder ended up taking more time to fit things that werent quite right, or what he was used to etc.

I think your best bet is to do the "easier" jobs, like painting etc, yourself, and then getting a proper tradie in for the more complex work.

 

[JWR]

That's a good point Penny.

I can get wholesale prices easily (through my 2nd cousin who is a tradie for a big company) so am not concerned about cost of materials.

Aim is to DIY easy things - and ask tradies for what materials they need.

Obviously I will have to go down a non-orthodox method to get the job done... which is why I think apprentices and retired tradies are a good route... but would like to hear if anyone has any experience with this method.

 

[Corey Batt]

Pretty sure you don't want to get TAFE students in to wire your house. Or plumb it for that matter. Voided insurance policies anyone?

Likewise with 'cash' jobs, I wouldn't be publicly advertising that you're happy to partake in tax evasion. Also lose any chance of warranties on workmanship if you don't have a receipt...

The best I see it as is to find quality and affordable plumber, sparky etc. Maybe if you're quick learning you could probably be able to gyprock yourself, though it all depends on your skills. You do NOT want to skimp on the quality of workmanship.

With the apprentices, most of the tradies I've seen already do this. Also seen the stuff these apprentices think is 'right', only to be chewed out by the overseer.

Still think there is more money in spending the time it would take doing this project in working another job and buying a bogan-spec old house... Even a burn't out special like Nathan gets up to...

 

[JWR]

Yeah well the idea would be ONE professional at $xyz rate and a couple of Apprentices at a much lower rate (double what they would earn normally though).

Obviously I want good quality as well and wouldn't have impossible jobs for Apprentices etc...

 

[Rockstar]

Yeah well the idea would be ONE professional at $xyz rate and a couple of Apprentices at a much lower rate (double what they would earn normally though).

Apprentices are attached to their tradies and they won't be charging them out at the same rate they pay them. My chippy charges his apprentice out at $35/hr but probably pays him $20/hr.
Save yourself the headaches of doing it "cheap" and take on the mindset of doing it "well" with maximum efficiency. Look after your workers and pay them fair rates and you will reap the benefits of their satisfaction of fairness from you. Everyone enjoys a fair go so enter into this spirit. Tradies dislike misers and bargain pushers and will lose interest in their work if a customer is miserly.

I could go on with more advice but, I guess, you will soon learn once you get going. Everyone here is providing good advice based on their experience. It's up to you if you want to make the same mistakes we have made in the past before accepting the advice.

 

[evand]

If a sparkie has other work that he's going to make a good earn, there's no way he's going to do it cheap for you. Why would he?

Your job sounds like a garden variety resiential rewire, nothing special, wont get a good sparkie excited. No big earner as it is.

Apprentices can't work alone and a tradie won't hire his apprentices to you, again, why would he? And there's Norway ou can say to a sparkie "I only want yourself and 2 apprentices on site" he'll laugh at you.

An old saying in trades "I'd rather go broke sitting on the beach than working"

As for material, tradies get discounts off trade prices,which sometimes can be really large, depending on quantity they buy. So, you buying material at trade prices, you still won't be in the ball park on price. I'd be surprised you'd get trade anyway.

I owned an electrical contracting business with a bunch or tradies and subbies for years. You're on a hiding to nothing.