What's better: debt or savings?

In times of global economy meltdown, D&G, the whole world collapsing etc etc is it better to be in debt, have cash, or have savings in the bank?:)

a) Be in debt
b) Cash
c) Savings in the bank

I.e. if the whole system collapses, would you rather have savings in a bank, which you cannot even use to make a fire, or have banks( if they still exist) trying to collect money from you?:)

Can mods make this a poll please?:)
 
Not even I am such a bear that I think the whole system will collapse.

It is possible that we will have a have a severe recession in which case Cash will be King. But you can't eat cash so you will need to spend it on assets sometime or the opportunity to buy good ones will pass you by.

It is also possible that we may have a period of runaway inflation in which case Cash will be a massive loser and you must own "things" which hold their value when measured against something other than your local currency. (Debt will be no problem)

The third possibility is that we have the recession and it is over-corrected and turns into hyper-inflation.

The "safest" asset in any scenario is gold but you can't eat that either so must be converted into other assets when it is clear what's happening.

Edit: This is what hyper-inflation looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/Zimbabwe_$100bn_2008_Reverse.jpg
 
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Just wanted to point out in the late 1980s gold was about the same price as it is now.

Which means that it has lost at least half of its purchasing power since then. So its credentials as a hedge against inflation are dubious.
 
Hi all,

Strannik,

Can mods make this a poll please?

Please do not make this another meaningless poll!!!!!!

Discussion around the topic is far more relevant than some silly poll without discussion.

On topic,

If there were financial armageddon, then none of the choices would be correct. You would want to live on a few acres of land with a good water supply and good soils. You would also need to be part of a community of like minded people (also on a few acres each), with a variety of skills between the people.
Added to this would be isolation from much of the rest of the country so that you were away from mauriding gangs of starving people. Plus you would have to be well armed and trained to defend your community.

Basically such a bad scenario it is not worth planning for.
Politicians around the world also know it is not a road to go down and will do anything and everything possible to stop it.

If it means destroying current savings of the BBs, then so be it.

If it means much higher inflation, so be it.

bye
 
The reason why I want poll, is because i want to see which out of those 3 options people would prefer. I realise there is a vast number of other options, but i'm not interested in them for the purposes of this.

Having lived in USSR during it's collapse, when people lost all their life savings because central banking system has collapsed along with the state, and then 10 or so years of instability and high inflation, i would personally rather be in debt and then have banks chase me or pay it off when inflation makes my debt virtually non-existent.


Now as far as it being bad scenario and not worth planning for - it happened in Argentina very recently, don't see why it couldn't happen in Australia or USA.

Not saying it's a likely scenario, but it could happen.
 
Just wanted to point out in the late 1980s gold was about the same price as it is now.

You are comparing a peak with a trough.

About six years ago gold was less than half what it is today. Over the centuries it remains the same, approx.

But why do I bother? You and I couldn't agree that water is wet.
 
You are comparing a peak with a trough.

About six years ago gold was less than half what it is today. Over the centuries it remains the same, approx.

But why do I bother? You and I couldn't agree that water is wet.

The point being Mr Fish is that gold is subject to speculative bubbles just like everything else. If anything it is the worst form of speculation because not only does it not have an income stream attached you have to pay for the privilege of having it stored.

But for today we can at least agree that water is wet.
 
Hi Strannik,

Asking about Australia going belly up or US belly up is different to total world wide economic collapse.

When any one country hits the skids, foreign money eventually comes in to pick up the pieces (bargains) and usually gets help from the governments.

What you asked about was total economic collapse. There is no foreign money to come in, because everybody has collapsed together.

When one country collapses, trade still goes on. Other currencies are still considered good collateral/mediums of exchange.

If there is total global economic collapse, virtually all international trade will stop as no-one would trust any currency offered for the goods.
This is where the gold bugs claim it is a good bet. However I have a feeling that transporting the gold from A to B may proves so difficult (no transport reliable), to render it useless for a period of time.

Total global economic collapse is just so bad as to not be worth planning for.

bye
 
Gold varies around a constant level if we could find something to measure it against. (A good Gentleman's outfit?) Cash varies around a steadily declining value. In my lifetime it has lost 95% of it's value. I remember buying a beer for 11 pence. :(

In the scenario Strannik is concerned about, the best possible asset to own would be small value gold and silver coins to tide him over the storm. (I have some as an investment/insurance.) Merchants would love someone offering metal to buy something with because they then have the "safe" asset. It wouldn't be someone else's promise to pay and those promises aren't worth much today. What will they be worth when TSHTF?

I can't remember much about Argentina's bust but the banks closed for some time so no-one had access to their money and I remember that, as always, the middle class copped a bath.
 
In times of global economy meltdown, D&G, the whole world collapsing etc etc is it better to be in debt, have cash, or have savings in the bank?:)
Hi Strannik,

OK, I'll answer your question directly as best I can based on my own experience and perceptions.

The financial crisis at present hasn't spread to Main Street in Austalia. Its still just a financial crisis. Our banks are well capitalised and our government is in surplus. The RBA has the rates setting quite high and can ease readily. I state all these obvious facts just to give your question context. So what is likely to happen?

1. I think the RBA is going to continue to ease aggressively. I picked 200bp or more in this thread as explained in this post. We'll definately be on an expansionary setting before this easing cycle is over. Expect the RBA rate to be cut to at least 4.5% odd before they're done. I won a bottle of nice single malt scotch off another poster for being right on that call of >100bp in cuts. ;)

2. The government is going to spend its surplus, and some of the future fund, and probably even go into debt to spend more. They'll spend all that cash trying to prop up the economy and stop the financial crisis turning into a recession. The UK are doing this, but from a much weaker starting point than where we are at in Australia.

3. The government also knows that the Aussie consumer has a stretched balance sheet at present. They're also accutely aware of the wealth effect on consumption patterns and the fact that most of Aussie wealth is tied up in our house prices. They won't want to see house prices crash for fear of this having a severe adverse wealth effect impact on consumer spending patterns. That would definately see us rush towards recession. So, they'll do everything they can to prop up house prices with things like increasing FHOG, cutting section 94 contributions, easing stamp duties and land tax etc. I expect a concerted suite of initiatives to be forthcoming that will be favourable to property owners and developers.

The net impact of these initiatives is what you need to consider when making decisions today about where best to hold your cash/debt.

My personal opinion, and the one I am banking on is as follows:

In the short term interest rates are set to crash. So, debt is good, cash in the bank is bad. On top of this, the stimulatory actions of cutting rates and pumping investment into the economy will re-assert inflation in the medium term. I think hard assets like properties will benefit from this. And, debt will be deflated in real terms as inflation re-asserts.

My personal opinion, as the crap hits the fan as at present: Hold your hard assets which benefit from inflation, hold your debt which benefits from easing rates and inflation. Limit your exposure to cash as this deflates to nothing.

The cash part of the cycle is historically the shortest lived of the three. No question we were in cash for the last 12 months, but I think it might be starting to turn back to equities soon, then property thereafter. I think we might just about have seen the bottom of the ASX at 3700, and should see a significant bounce from here. Property will become the asset of choice from 2010-ish onwards, or even mid-2009 when the RBA has eased rates another 100-150bp.

Anyone else still keen on placing any bets that the RBA won't ease 200bp in this easing cycle? There was a lot of SSers betting 100bp was too optimistic and that was hit with a single cut.

All just my humble opinion, but that's what you asked for right? :D

Cheers,
Michael
 
Michael, what you write is in line with what I've been trying to say lately. You say it better! :)
Thanks Thommo,

But credit to you too, it was one of your "about turn" posts recently that reminded me of the impact on assets of hyper-inflation and helped consolidate my personal opinion and investment setting. That's one of the best things about SS, you get the combined wisdom of a lot of investors with a lot of different experiences, biases and outlooks. When you distill it all down with your own lens, you get a much improved view of the world. I was originally far too bullish, or blindly optimistic when I joined SS. Over the years, yourself, KiethJ and others helped refine my personal outlook and stance. I thank you and SS for helping me become a better investor by virtue of the conversations we've shared here!

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi Strannik,

OK, I'll answer your question directly as best I can based on my own experience and perceptions.

The financial crisis at present hasn't spread to Main Street in Austalia. Its still just a financial crisis. Our banks are well capitalised and our government is in surplus. The RBA has the rates setting quite high and can ease readily. I state all these obvious facts just to give your question context. So what is likely to happen?

1. I think the RBA is going to continue to ease aggressively. I picked 200bp or more in this thread as explained in this post. We'll definately be on an expansionary setting before this easing cycle is over. Expect the RBA rate to be cut to at least 4.5% odd before they're done. I won a bottle of nice single malt scotch off another poster for being right on that call of >100bp in cuts. ;)

2. The government is going to spend its surplus, and some of the future fund, and probably even go into debt to spend more. They'll spend all that cash trying to prop up the economy and stop the financial crisis turning into a recession. The UK are doing this, but from a much weaker starting point than where we are at in Australia.

3. The government also knows that the Aussie consumer has a stretched balance sheet at present. They're also accutely aware of the wealth effect on consumption patterns and the fact that most of Aussie wealth is tied up in our house prices. They won't want to see house prices crash for fear of this having a severe adverse wealth effect impact on consumer spending patterns. That would definately see us rush towards recession. So, they'll do everything they can to prop up house prices with things like increasing FHOG, cutting section 94 contributions, easing stamp duties and land tax etc. I expect a concerted suite of initiatives to be forthcoming that will be favourable to property owners and developers.

The net impact of these initiatives is what you need to consider when making decisions today about where best to hold your cash/debt.

My personal opinion, and the one I am banking on is as follows:

In the short term interest rates are set to crash. So, debt is good, cash in the bank is bad. On top of this, the stimulatory actions of cutting rates and pumping investment into the economy will re-assert inflation in the medium term. I think hard assets like properties will benefit from this. And, debt will be deflated in real terms as inflation re-asserts.

My personal opinion, as the crap hits the fan as at present: Hold your hard assets which benefit from inflation, hold your debt which benefits from easing rates and inflation. Limit your exposure to cash as this deflates to nothing.

The cash part of the cycle is historically the shortest lived of the three. No question we were in cash for the last 12 months, but I think it might be starting to turn back to equities soon, then property thereafter. I think we might just about have seen the bottom of the ASX at 3700, and should see a significant bounce from here. Property will become the asset of choice from 2010-ish onwards, or even mid-2009 when the RBA has eased rates another 100-150bp.

Anyone else still keen on placing any bets that the RBA won't ease 200bp in this easing cycle? There was a lot of SSers betting 100bp was too optimistic and that was hit with a single cut.

All just my humble opinion, but that's what you asked for right? :D

Cheers,
Michael

great post
 
Great post Michael.

I think your observation that the share market will recover prior to the property market is accurate.

The challenges ahead of us investors are:
1) protecting & improving our cashflow to weather this storm then.....
2) build a "war chest" ready for....
3) getting into the share market when it turns and then using that equity to.....
4) get into property as it turns

Easier said than done ;)
 
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