How to deal with this dodgy builder?

i suppose there are some quite obvious issues with the painting, plastering but some photos aren't that clear.

if he hasn't completed the job - that he obviously needs to come back to fix it to be fully paid. i would highlight all of these to him and then also get a couple of quotes from other "registered builders" to fix these issues. If you had a report from a registered building inspector - that would carry a lot of weight.

he is entitled to fix the issues and needs to be given a chance to do so, however if he doesn't want to come back to fix them in a reasonable timeframe. just offer him to pay him the difference btw getting another builder to fix it up and then wait on his response. Remember to document everything you do and have a diary of events (or else you will be trapped in you said i said scenarios which is very subjective).

this is very typical of a trade demanding payment without listening to the customer and then getting upset and super defensive when being questioned.
 
We'd be drafting an email tonight with all these issues and confront him with the fact that he doesn't have the license to do the job. Plus that he will not be getting paid till he has gotten these issues fixed. In my view he'd be doing a runner the moment he gets paid for the works. We will also point out the Home Building Act reminding him that he is not licensed to carry out these works.

Is it legit to ask him to return the keys? Will he return them easily? If he doesn't, what other options are there other than changing the locks.

If it was my place and assuming it's possible to give a piece back to him, I'd get the whole place re-painted using someone who knows what they are doing and are fully licensed to do the works!
 
i suppose there are some quite obvious issues with the painting, plastering but some photos aren't that clear.

if he hasn't completed the job - that he obviously needs to come back to fix it to be fully paid. i would highlight all of these to him and then also get a couple of quotes from other "registered builders" to fix these issues. If you had a report from a registered building inspector - that would carry a lot of weight.

he is entitled to fix the issues and needs to be given a chance to do so, however if he doesn't want to come back to fix them in a reasonable timeframe. just offer him to pay him the difference btw getting another builder to fix it up and then wait on his response. Remember to document everything you do and have a diary of events (or else you will be trapped in you said i said scenarios which is very subjective).

this is very typical of a trade demanding payment without listening to the customer and then getting upset and super defensive when being questioned.

Hi Melbournian,
Just saw your post. Wow, that will be interesting to actually bring SOMEONE else to ask to give quotes to fix it. What a hassle. Also what sort of building inspector is needed? Can we use the ones that do B&P inspections?

Definitely going to document everything. We can give him two options a) fix it b) that we get quotes for fixing it and he pays for it....

I bet he will not be taking option b on board...and option a has already been difficult to enforce...

Will send the mail tonight...

Thanks again for your suggestions...

What should this sort of building inspector cost? I know that when ordering B&P that roughly costs $400.
 
Also do you reckon confronting with the fact that he is not registered to the works will make it harder to get any work out of him now?
 
We'd be drafting an email tonight with all these issues and confront him with the fact that he doesn't have the license to do the job. Plus that he will not be getting paid till he has gotten these issues fixed. In my view he'd be doing a runner the moment he gets paid for the works. We will also point out the Home Building Act reminding him that he is not licensed to carry out these works.

Is it legit to ask him to return the keys? Will he return them easily? If he doesn't, what other options are there other than changing the locks.

If it was my place and assuming it's possible to give a piece back to him, I'd get the whole place re-painted using someone who knows what they are doing and are fully licensed to do the works!

Well to rekey only costs like $150-$200. if he doesn't return the keys and refuses to come back - i would not pay him till some other builder sorts it out. and then the balance given to him.

remember documentation is important as you will never know one day this carpenter/builder might put a case of unpaid debt to you and you need to ascertain the sequence of events. As long as you did by the book - should be fine.
 
Also do you reckon confronting with the fact that he is not registered to the works will make it harder to get any work out of him now?

quite subjective - you would have to judge his personality etc.

if he has any understanding of the building laws he would compromise. as in vic - there are heap of cases of unregistered builders being fined anything btw 5,000 -100,000s by consumer affiars and the building commission for work which they are not registered or licensed for.
 
Hi Melbournian,
Just saw your post. Wow, that will be interesting to actually bring SOMEONE else to ask to give quotes to fix it. What a hassle. Also what sort of building inspector is needed? Can we use the ones that do B&P inspections?

Definitely going to document everything. We can give him two options a) fix it b) that we get quotes for fixing it and he pays for it....

I bet he will not be taking option b on board...and option a has already been difficult to enforce...

Will send the mail tonight...

Thanks again for your suggestions...

What should this sort of building inspector cost? I know that when ordering B&P that roughly costs $400.

i normally use my building surveyor which cost $280-$330 as i use him and recommended him quite a bit. but you should be able to google and find some reputable building inspectors in sydney.

to be honest, there are lot of trades on this forum who think essentially anyone who trys to get an outcome by using these methods (registered inspectors, tribunals) are troublemakers. End of the day - the way i see it i's your money and it isn't fair call to just let it go on a job not done properly and there is a legal system that exists to protect customers and traders alike.
 
i normally use my building surveyor which cost $280-$330 as i use him and recommended him quite a bit. but you should be able to google and find some reputable building inspectors in sydney.

to be honest, there are lot of trades on this forum who think essentially anyone who trys to get an outcome by using these methods (registered inspectors, tribunals) are troublemakers. End of the day - the way i see it i's your money and it isn't fair call to just let it go on a job not done properly and there is a legal system that exists to protect customers and traders alike.

Thanks Melbournian! I agree...it's hard earned money. I'm all to build networks with tradies who are genuine and reliable to be called upon over and over again.

Sydney siders, any suggestions for building surveyors? I read somewhere Peter 14.7 is a building surveyor?

quite subjective - you would have to judge his personality etc.

I've only seen a photo. I've only observed by the photo that the energy he carries is quite negative. And from what I've heard he has gotten quite passive aggressive and upset on the site...like literally mad.
 
And from what I've heard he has gotten quite passive aggressive and upset on the site...like literally mad.

Literally mad is a bit beyond passive aggressive! :)

Hi Ms Ali and Monalisa,

Have you worn out that camera yet! I have very little recent experience with reno's and specialise in new homes where everything is perfect - except me of course.:D

All I can say is that Melbournian is giving good advice as far as dealing with the contractor. Based on the photo evidence, the workmanship is poor though, seemingly, unfinished.

I think there is a communication lesson here. What does the contract state and does it reflect expectations of both parties? There is so much to be said about putting things in writing especially when it involves an existing house. Did the contract state that all work would bring the place up to an "as new" standard? Sure, a new door will obviously be perfect (within standards) but what about existing walls, arch's and skirts, etc. Here you need to get into nitty gritty expectations of repair work to existing chips, cracks and other sorts of defects. Was this all put in writing?

Hope the experience wizens you both up for next time. :)
 
Hi MsAli

As someone who has been to the property in the past, I can hopefully offer some thoughts.

First, the "there was no prep" photos mainly refers to imperfections/dents/gouges in the concrete render. The construction of the property is brick with render, and the render job was prettty average. Personally I think the complex was built as a lower cost housing project, perhaps even housing commission which was privatised later on, the construction standard is reasonably low. Not having a go :) The expansion joints showing on the entry hall ceiling slabs, rough render etc indicates a low cost build.

There is no real way to "prep" the imperfections in a stippled concrete wall without filling and skim coating, if you just fill small sections you end up with smooth bits and rough bits which looks worse. And corners that are chipped need to be fixed up properly otherwise they will just chip again when bumped.

To get a good finish you need to stipulate the painter spend 1-2 days doing clean down and prep. Many painters quotes are walk in and paint over. Painting is an area where you really do get what you pay for.

The paint job looks sloppy and he has just painted over everything.

The grouting on the walls is typical of a sloppy tiler, they apply the grout sloppily and get it all over the walls. It cant be cleaned off until the grout and adhesive has dried, so its up to the occupant to wash it off with a sponge, or I guess you could ask him to come back, will probably try to charge you though :(
 
Thanks Rockstar and Dave.

Rockstar - Paying him like close to 9k :eek: I'd expect him to do the work properly.

Dave - understood...Though my argument is he quoted to fix all patches and holes etc. So you would at least expect some prep. So obviously as you say, it is "sloppy", especially with wall paint being on the cornices and vice versa...

We drafted an email last night and sent him the email. Photos however couldn't go through as his email kept rejecting them...

His license was also requested. Today, he didn't reply to any of the issues, nor did he comment on his license...though said the painter can see you at the property at 12pm on Monday. Then later he sms'd saying he will also come with the painter.

Even if those imperfections can't go you'd expect some decent patching - looking at the front of the staircase/entrance, as well as behind the fridge or the crack in the laundry, the brackets hanging around...certain OBVIOUS gaps that can be filled and not filled. Fine he can't fix all imperfections but holes, deep gaps he can..

This is what was sent to him...and tomorrow we might go over when he comes and take bro. As I've come across a few tradies who think they can treat women however way...But he wasn't aware who he's dealing with and we will sort it out till we can, even if that means he goes to tribunal. He is in for a big fine (assuming he doesn't have the license to contract work out)

Can I please also add, he was paid 30% of $8,630 prior to the commencement of the job. More like he was paid more than 30% i.e. $2,619, then he was paid $1500 for the tiling. The latest invoice expected a payment of $7,230 --> Adds up to $11,349. Not sure if it's a genuine mistake but definitely a big one given he has been paid not only for tiling but the deposit of 30%+

Thank you for your email.

I visited the property today, and I would like to bring to your attention a number of issues which include but are not limited to the following, before I can process the payment for the services provided.

The painting job done by your painter Alki and his staff appears to have the following issues:
1. The preparation appears non-existent throughout the place;

2. Additionally, the agreed cornices have not been installed. In accordance with your quotation of 16 May 2012, the agreement was to “Patch existing and add new cornice where needed”;

3. The ceilings appear to only have one coat of paint, with multiple shades of paint;

4. I have attached a picture of one of the lounge walls, which is dirty. Additionally attached is a picture of a unprepared wall from the kitchen;

5. Fingerprints on door frames and skirtings (picture attached);

6. In accordance with the quotation you are required to remove fixtures and fittings. However this has not been done in the lounge, as well as the laundry (pictures attached) – the brackets are still stuck on the walls. Additionally, in the wardrobes, the hooks have not been removed;

7. Walls next to the tiles appear white (picture attached), and should be the wall paint colour;

8. There are cracks around the place, which should have been filled (one of the pictures attached);

9. Main bedroom has a patching on the ceiling, and it has not been painted;

10. Staircase – no filling at the bottom of the staircase near the entrance, which you would prepare before painting;

11. Kitchen security door - Your painter Alki had advised that he is unable to paint this door, given it was broken and had sticky tape stuck on it. When my carpenter came in on Saturday, the door was already painted, even though it was not in a condition of being painted. He went against his own professional advice. Also, you being the “project manager” should have listened to your painter’s professional advice. As the job was incomplete, he could have finished other jobs around the house prior to painting something he claimed was not in a condition to be painted;

12. Cutting between cornices and the walls is not done well – with the wall paint on the cornices, and vice versa;

13. Garage ceiling, which is part of the property has not been painted;

14. Garage internal sliding door has not been installed;

15. Laundry door from outside has not been painted, and it is part of the house;

16. No sign of basic preparation and patching of walls and doors throughout the property;

17. One of the brand new doors is damaged (as attached).

Your painter, Alki, has not attended the premises over the last one week to supervise his workers.
You have sent the invoice to me with the payment due date of 9 June 2012, without visiting the property, and confirming the work has been completed to satisfaction by your workers.
Given the quality of the work and the project management provided, please provide me with your builder/contractor license number. In accordance with the NSW Fair Trading website, one is not eligible to provide such services and present themselves as a builder, where.

“You must have a contractor license to contract, subcontract or advertise to do:

residential building work where the total cost of labour and materials is more than $1,000;
By law, your license number must be shown on all advertising, stationery and signage.”

However none of the quotations, invoices and your website list the required license number.

Section three of the Home Building Act 1989 No 147 notes the following definition of “residential building work”:

"residential building work means any work involved in, or involved in co-ordinating or supervising any work involved in:
(a) the construction of a dwelling, or
(b) the making of alterations or additions to a dwelling, or
(c) the repairing, renovation, decoration or protective treatment of a
dwelling."

As your work included “repairing, renovation, decoration” you have performed the works without the required licensing.

I would like to know what course of action you are going to take in relation to resolving the above listed issues, and the above list is not exhaustive.

As you had agreed to finish the job in two weeks, I advise that the two weeks are now up, and I made you aware before the job started that I have to move. I would like you to return me the house keys by close of business Tuesday.

Accordingly please let me know what action you will take to resolve the issues by midday Tuesday.

No agreement was updated, while the works done to date are not in compliance with the original quoted agreement.

Please refer to the zipped attachments in this and subsequent emails.
 
Rockstar - Paying him like close to 9k :eek: I'd expect him to do the work properly.

Of course you would. :)

I was just wondering if the agreement was all in writing. 9k is a lot to be trusting someone you don't know with a verbal agreement.

ps: great letter outlining your issues
 
Of course you would. :)

I was just wondering if the agreement was all in writing. 9k is a lot to be trusting someone you don't know with a verbal agreement.

ps: great letter outlining your issues

The agreement didn't say it should look new :(
Cheers Rocksteady :)
Monalisa wrote it :D
 
MsAli

Might be a good idea to post a copy of the quote here, blocking out personal details.

Would give those assisting you a better guide to how close performance was to quote.

I'm assuming the builder has signed off on the quote?

Cheers

Pete
 
Can I please also add, he was paid 30% of $8,630 prior to the commencement of the job. More like he was paid more than 30% i.e. $2,619, then he was paid $1500 for the tiling. The latest invoice expected a payment of $7,230 --> Adds up to $11,349. Not sure if it's a genuine mistake but definitely a big one given he has been paid not only for tiling but the deposit of 30%+

Wow - not sure what the regulations in NSW.

but in VIC - this is already a an offence - he is only entitled to 10% deposit of the quote and the rest either in agreement at stages or at completion of the job. the 5000 limit applies especially with managing trades and therefore he has to have builder registration, public liablity and produce a certficate of insurance to you prior to commencing.

I would personally photocopy a relevant section of the building act (in terms of license etc) as well as several cases and photographs to highlight your concerns when you meet him in person. If he realize the seriousness of the situation esp the amount of fines imposed if convicted- it is very likely he would make concessions to you.

If things get out of hand which is highly unlikely - make sure you know your local police telephone number if he decides not to give the keys or to the point where he won't leave.

i suppose in hindsight - you should have a proper building contract to avoid complications, as there are many areas which you can use esp where there are work delays which results in the builder giving you compensation. Also at least you have the experience in seeing the pros and cons over using quotes vs hourly rates - with the quote - he would have to come back to get it done correctly where else if using an hourly rate - many trades were say theare are more or else a contractor per hour and doing as they were instructed.

in btw - that was a pretty good email to the builder
 
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Turk, I don't have the quote on me...so can't post it.

Melbournian, thanks for the leads. Will be mailing again that he is not allowed to come to the property till he has presented his license and insurance certificate. As well as how he will fix it. He doesn't want to put anything in writing and hence just a one liner email.

The cleaner who came to clean the windows found the keys hiding under the mat outside...So the keys are back with the owners....
 
Thank you all for your valuable input. I am very grateful.

Going through the Building Act, and this is what it says:

8 Maximum deposits

(1) A person must not:
(a) demand or receive a payment on account before work is commenced under a contract to do residential building work, or
(b) enter into a contract under which the person is entitled to demand or receive a payment on account before residential building work is commenced,

if the amount of the payment is prohibited by this section.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and
200 penalty units in any other case.

(2) The amount of the payment is prohibited if:
(a) the contract price is more than $20,000 and the payment is more than 5% of the contract price (or, where another percentage is prescribed by the regulations in respect of a particular kind of work, the percentage so prescribed), or
(b) the contract price is $20,000 or less and the payment is more than 10% of the contract price (or, where another percentage is prescribed by the regulations in respect of a particular kind of work, the percentage so prescribed).

(3) The regulations may make provision concerning how a contract price is to be determined for the purposes of this section.
 
If things get out of hand which is highly unlikely - make sure you know your local police telephone number if he decides not to give the keys or to the point where he won't leave.

i suppose in hindsight - you should have a proper building contract to avoid complications, as there are many areas which you can use esp where there are work delays which results in the builder giving you compensation. Also at least you have the experience in seeing the pros and cons over using quotes vs hourly rates - with the quote - he would have to come back to get it done correctly where else if using an hourly rate - many trades were say theare are more or else a contractor per hour and doing as they were instructed.

in btw - that was a pretty good email to the builder

Thank you Melbournaian, have definitely learning a lot for next time.

Thanks re email - I am grateful for the career path I chose - compliments property well :D
 
Going through the Building Act, and this is what it says:

We'll be consulting you soon Monalisa if we ever get into contractual difficulties! Seemingly negative experiences can sure turn into valuable ones that strengthen you when you face up to the challenge. All the best in dealing with the guy. Hopefully, for everyones sake, he will be more careful and transparent in future dealings.
 
We'll be consulting you soon Monalisa if we ever get into contractual difficulties! Seemingly negative experiences can sure turn into valuable ones that strengthen you when you face up to the challenge. All the best in dealing with the guy. Hopefully, for everyones sake, he will be more careful and transparent in future dealings.

Thank you Rockstar :) ... I am actually thinking whether this could turn into a career path :D

Surely, grateful for the disappointments, for they have shaped me, and hence we are here - on our property journey :)
 
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