No int% rise for rest of 04

Seems some of us are not alone.John edwards from Residex annnounced today that he predicts no interest rate rise until 2005.

Now if that comes true,,,, there will there be some sad people by December 04,,Thats if they still choose not to buy?

New John had good sense...lol

So if you have taken the foot off, ADVICE is don't leave the car yet...

OV
 
Ocean View

With elections coming up, If the RBA decides to raise rates John Howard will be very dissapointed.

I don't think they will do it
(unless the RBA chief wants to look for a new job)
or perhaps they could go up 0.25 and drive our exports to the ground and bring rates down before election time.
 
Dear OV,

I've already stated that last weekend was the turning point in seeing movement in the Brisbane market.

Agree there is more petrol in the tank left.

Cheers,

Sunstone.
 
Have to agree with you guys...

We are seeing quite a number of vendors who were 'waiting for the market to top out' before selling now putting properties on the market.

This is bringing a lot of buyers out of the woodwork who perceive that the market has turned to a 'buyers market'.

It's interesting to watch, since what this means is that there are a lot of new properties, and a lot of buyers coming into the market. And lots of goodies to be had...

I believe it's rejuvenated the market, and that can only be a good thing.

Now, if there's not going to be another rate rise this year, then I think the rates bump we had last year will soon be forgotten.

Brissie/QLD is still the 'place to buy' I think (not that I am biased or anything... :) ) but seriously, It's really still 'taking off' as a City, and I know I have been saying this for a while, but last Nov I predicted that the market in BNE still had about a third to go, price wise.

I know that's a bold statement, and I hope it produces some discussion, and remember, it's only OPINION, but what I mean is, houses which are currently $300k will end up $400k and houses which are $600k will end up $800k.

There is still quite an influx of Southerners, Just Like ME!, coming up here. Must admit, I have seen quite a movement in the lower socioec tenants of ours also looking at moving further north, like Cairns and Rocky (priced out of the BNE market, and rather than going to areas like logan or ipswich are choosing a complete change)... so it's a wave up the coast, as I see it. I have seen a couple of families moving south, but that's for work. Only one person so far has moved south really wanting to, and that was a younger woman who didn't like the lack of nightlife here (Ex-Sydneyite here for work transferring back (QF hostess).

What do you guys think?

Am I right? Am I wrong? Time for a good discussion!

asy :D
 
Dear Asy,

I have seen quite a movement in the lower socioec tenants of ours also looking at moving further north

Yes I have a vested interest in disagreeing with you on this point. :)

However:

The issue with tenants is that they must always have their own revenue stream............ AKA for a typical tenant...... A job.

Typically tenants don't just pickup a whole family and completely change both residence and job at the same time. This is perceived to be a very big increase in risk. What is more likely to happen when there is change is for one of the two to change and then later the other one when the right conditions are present.

I have however noticed that my tenants are getting more and more "disposable" income which is healthy.

In the "North" there is limited industry apart from Tourism.


But what happens when rents go up substantially?

Tenants must either:

-Move into units/townhouses (Higher density living.)
-Share existing dwellings. (Sublet)
-Move further away from the city. (Less facilities and infrastructure.)

This is what is happening. The question is when they move further away how far do they move? A five km move each time I think is more practical than a 25km +++ if they still wanted to still have the same "basic" house.

Maybe Brenda has some viewpoints on whether she has perceived an increase in population Lowood/Marburg way. I know they have a different view on subdivisions and relocated houses............



Certainly articles such as the one below bode well for OV's view of no interest rate rise this year.

http://afr.com/articles/2004/02/16/1076779879730.html


This is certainly going to be a mixed thread.

Cheers,

Sunstone.
 
Hi forumites!

I have started another thread but then decided to post it here.

Have been talking to a friend today who is a finance analyst at St George, as well as property investor. She said all the charting their top economist have been doing lately indicates that interest rates will hit 8.5% by the end of the year and go as high as 11% by 2007 (which basically is similar to the BIS Shrapnel's and Merryl Lynch's predictions). She is the first to admit that "all economic forecasting is crap", but nevertheless she is liquidating part of her portfolio to reduce debt. The general consensus among other people I've been talking to is that we are not going to see interest higher than 8% for quite a few years. But this conversation has made me nervous. I am still green where property investing is concerned, my position is not very robust and I get spooked easily.

Cheers
Nic
 
One of my main criticisms of mathematical economics has always been that its true-believers proponents blindly believe what their models tell them.

"The r-squared is .90, so it must be right!"

Heaven forbid that they have actually created / are using a model that is completely useless at predicting reality.

Thankfully your friend does not sound like such a person.

For reasons I have posted numerous times before, I do not believe that double-digit mortgage rates will be seen in Australia at any time in the foreseeable future.

1. There is a lack of economic justification for such rates (as usual subject to change).

(It would require a 60% increase in rates from where we are now, given that the cash rate is 5.25% - to get to a 10% mortgage rate, you'd need a cash rate of around 8.5%).

2. (and this is the killer) Political Realities.

I am firmly of the belief that on either side of politics there exists a core aversion to double-digit interest rates.

The coalition prides itself in sensible economic management.

When next they are in Government the ALP would sell their own political mother if it meant they could prove that the disaster of "the recession we had to have" is not a recurring feature of their terms.

In either case, 10% + mortgage rates would bring those claims into question and probably lead to a slaughter at the polls.

I really don't know what else to say.

MB
 
Interesting comments from Sunstone on why people relocate but why do they move to an area?

My thoughts are, they move for better employment and a better lifestyle. Each persons perception of this is different.

Better employment may mean jobs in abundance for the unemployed, ie cities or industrial areas. Or to another person, it may mean, higher wages, which may mean country areas willing to pay a bit more for a specialized form of employment.

Lifestyle wise, some love the beaches, some love the city shopping and nightlife, some love the country air and a more relaxed style of living.

Education opportunities for the children is often important also especially for universities, etc.

Travel to work and school is important. Some don't want to have to drive, preferring the train or bus instead. Some don't mind an hrs drive to work if it means living in a nice country area and commuting.

There are an increasing number of people on disability, aged, single mothers as well as unemployed pensions. Where do they go when government rental assistance is paultry in terms of rental prices? Some of those people don't mind sharing houses, or living in units or caravan parks as Sunstone pointed out. Some people though want a longterm rental home of their own though and may be willing to relocate many kilometers from cities if they can find such a place.

In terms of the Lowood area, postcode 4311 for those who want to look it up, it is still a small town in a country area. The shire has in times gone past had excellent industry and entertainment but this is usually sold out or traded off to the bigger more populated areas like Ipswich. Reading past history of rural areas will reveal this has happened to most rural areas.

If it wasn't for a great mountain range, Lowood may well have almost been a suburb of Brisbane by now. Also the Ipswich motorway which badly needs upgrading is continually swamped with traffic trying to get in and out of Brisbane with work commutors. We used to have a railway where huge amounts of rural produce was transported to the city but the government and councils saw fit to close that. Now, apart from car travel there is only a daily bus into Ipswich and linking to the rail system into Brisbane for public transport.

Subdivision opportunities abound in this area but I don't know what the Esk council is like in terms of appoving them.

Yes one day Lowood area will be very populated but things don't happen fast in the country so be patient.:D
 
Thanks Pitt St. I told her as much. But my problem is that I don't have any appreciation of economic realities. While a mathematician by education, where economic analysis is concerned - I am but a parrot repeating other people's opinions. Hence addiction to this forum - constantly seeking more information from people with more knowledge and experience. :) Could anyone explain why the Labor government did what they did in late 80s with the interest rates and why we had "the recession we had to have" as well as why you think it won't happen again if Labor came to power?

Cheers
Nic
 
Nic, it is absurd to think "labor dun it". Like everything else it was imported from the US. Our next major economic turmoil will also be imported from there.

To stay one step ahead stay up with international affairs.

Thommo
 
Originally posted by nic

Could anyone explain why the Labor government did what they did in late 80s with the interest rates and why we had "the recession we had to have" as well as why you think it won't happen again if Labor came to power?


Why the ALP did what they did with interest rates

The 80's were arguably the most economically busy times in recent history.

In Australia we had the floating of the dollar, the deregulation of the financial sector, the emphasis on external balance as a policy goal (our CAD), and top it off, microeconomic reform.

Though you don't hear much about it now, in the 1980's the big economic news was the Current Account Deficit (CAD) and Foreign Debt (the latter is simply the sum total of the former).

In the late 80's Australian consumers developed an almost insatiable taste for foreign goods (imports) and our CAD went ballistic. The government's response to this growing consumer demand was to raise interest rates - after all this would stop consumers from spending.

No such luck.

Unfortunately what happened was that individuals kept borrowing, but businesses stopped.

Enter stage right - the recession we had to have.

The recovery from that recession was a lot slower and more painful than might otherwise had been the case had Australian businesses kept updating and expanding their capital.


Why we had the recession and why it was so bad

There are probably a few factors that contributed to why we had the recession - but only two main ones:

1. Interest rates being held too high for too long (see comments above)

and

2. Microeconomic reform.

MR is the process of removing "barriers" to the efficient allocation of resources.

That is economists speak for slashing tariffs, removing quotas and subsidies, reducing barriers to entry and so on.

In Australia MR also became known as "structural reform" because an inevitable consequence of MR was that the structure of the economy would change. Industries such as TCF (Textiles, Clothing and Footwear) had their protection removed and were increasingly exposed to international competition > job losses > change in the structure of the economy.

It is unfortunate that the structural change largely bought about by MR also coincided with sh*thouse macroeconomic management > the worst recession in 60 years.

Still, all things considered, this nation is better for the experience.


Why not again under Labor?

That you even ask that question illustrates my point.

Thing is, everyone expects them to screw up the economy again. It is the stuff of legend that the ALP couldn't manage an economy out of a wet paper bag.

In the 80's, the ALP owned the RBA and Paul Keating certainly exercised an inordinate amount of influence over the RBA during his term as Treasurer - extending well into his time as PM via the then Governor Bernie Fraser.

IMHO, under Ian McFarlane the RBA has regained some of its independence.

Since 1996, the Commonwealth Government and the RBA have had a "Statement on the Conduct of Monetary Policy".

Second Statement on the Conduct of Monetary Policy - 2003.

And I quote from the Second such statement (see above):


"The Government recognises the independence of the Bank and its responsibility for monetary policy matters and intends to respect the Bank's independence as provided by statute."

Sounds good.

"Section 11 of the Act prescribes procedures for the resolution of policy differences between the Reserve Bank Board and the Government. The procedures, in effect, allow the Government to determine policy in the event of a material difference; but the procedures are politically demanding and their nature reinforces the Bank's independence in the conduct of monetary policy. Safeguards like this ensure that monetary policy is subject to the checks and balances inherent and necessary in a democratic system."

Ok.

So what they are saying here is that the RBA is independant but the Government determines policy in the event of any material difference.

IMHO, we have not seen an material difference in recent years - hence the RBA has basically been able to do its own thing.

But, a situation where mortgage interest rates have the capacity to be at 10+%?

That is probably a material difference.

To the RBA it matters little - they don't have to get re-elected (though to do face re-appointment). However, the political implications of 10% interest rates are massive and I suspect the ALP (or Coalition) would take charge of matters long before it came to that.

There is a touch of irony in what I am saying.

It is a matter of public record (John Edwards book on Paul Keating) that when Keating, Treasury and Fraser were saying that rates should go higher (to 17+%) that Ian McFarlane, who was then only an Assistant Governor, was saying that rates should fall.

At that time the ALP used its influence to raise rates.

Only now, I am saying that if it came to the crunch, the ALP (or the Coalition) would use their influence again - this time to keep rates down below a certain level.

MB
 
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Interesting article in the Age today: Read it HERE

It says, in part,

Brisbane house prices would rise by 42 per cent between June 2003 and June 2006 as the Queensland housing boom continues for at least another 18 months, Mr Mellor said.

Which makes what I said earlier in this thread:
Nov I predicted that the market in BNE still had about a third to go, price wise.
very interesting (to me, at least).

Considering the rise in price between June and Nov '03, that's roughly the same prediction!!!

asy :D
 
I asked the Q on another forum: why the high interest rates in the '80s and this is the reply. Please don't think this guy is a goose.

Hi Hanrahan,

It will have to be quick - Carry on Camping will soon be on Movie Greats!!!

In the early 1980s, a combination of the following:
1)
rigid monetary policy;
2)
high inflation;
3)
increasing Federal deficits (including the $10B deficit legacy of John Howard in 1983);
4)
the inherent fear of an ALP elected Government;
5)
regulated and rationed home loans (rates @12.5%);
6)
a fixed exchange rate which kept the A$ artificially high;
7)
growing external debt (note, the Balance of Trade was largely in balance or in surplus at this time whilst the Balance of Payments, due to Services and Transfer Payments, was in deficit); and
8)
a legacy of the ill-fated Resources Boom of the early 1980s (which effectively crowded out the market vis-a-vis Government vs Corporate /private debt).

In the late 1980s, a combination of the following:
1)
a growing view that fiscal policy was no longer working and that monetary policy was the primary economic instrument (Monetarism as championed by Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics);
2)
continuing high inflation;
3)
increasing Federal deficits and the growing legacy of nation-wide State budget deficits (with the overall public sector heavily in deficit;
4)
the entrenched impact of a nation with ALP Governments in place Federally and in Victoria, Tasmania, WA and South Australia (Carr's run in NSW had not yet started, but Wran's legacy had run over);
5)
a regulated home loan sector (even though actual home loan rates were no longer regulated);
6)
a floating exchange rate which was still trying to find its equilibrium value (as measured fby the volatility inherent in the exchange rate from 1983 to 1993);
7)
rapidly growing external debt (note, the Balance of Trade was now also in deficit, as well as the Balance of Payments); and
8)
a crisis of confidence in our currency (late 1980s) which sparked successive rate tightenings by the RBA;
9)
economic imbalance (both internally and externally) due to the timelag associated with structural change in the economy taking effect;
10)
taxation treatment of both financial transactions and of interest (including the 1985 decision to abolish negative gearing);
11)
a continuing legacy dating from the early 1980s where the Public and Private sectors were effectively competing for the same pool of funds (this is no longer the case in Australia, at a Federal level and increasingly at a State level. It is also not the case in the USA where the corporate sector has less of a demand on the same pool of funds as do the Federal and State Governments. In other words, their is less competition for funds and less crowding out).

Trust that this is of some help.
All the best,
Grant62


Forget the map, Aus is NOT an island. No government can honestly claim credit for all the good things which happen on it's watch nor honestly blame the previous one for all the ills which befall it. Government descisions take decades before the true impact is felt. Menzies would ride on the sheep's back forever. Gough had doubts and Bob changed us forever.

Yours politically..... Thommo
 
It aint easy AB. I'm trying to broarden the debate here.

There are no "bad" guys, nor "good" guys. Just self serving politicians. The government is holding a hand in which 10 of the 13 cards are leftovers from the previous gov. The Albetross dates back to Menzies. Can you pick the good guys? I can't.
 
Originally posted by Thommo
I asked the Q on another forum: why the high interest rates in the '80s and this is the reply. Please don't think this guy is a goose.

Goose is not a word that springs to mind.

Grant62, whoever he is, knows quite a lot and I suspect he was "in the business" while all this occured.

I was still in school.

MB

(there was no contradiction in what either of us wrote)
 
???????

Now the 2IC from RBA saying may get .5% increase by end of the year..

That has shocked a few people in the last 24 hrs??????????

RBA trying to put the brakes on again re.....the market,,,,,, using the bluff move???????

Personal debt still rising????? When will it not rise...
Lets face it,,, wages not keeping up with inflation...In the real world anyway...

I know people who have taken out Personal loans & credit cards to pay for the rent fas they can not keep up...Personal debt will not stop rising if the high price of housing remains...

What a problem the gov't has!!!

The Flip side

Increase rates %%%%& personal debt continues to rise again as the high loans taken out over the last 7 yrs through FHB'S will start following behind in payments,,,which again will lead to personal debt to carry them out of trouble?????

Wheres that crystal ball..I left it around here somewhere????

ov
 
OV, McFarlane said as much a couple of weeks back:

"Although the bulk of the evidence was still suggesting that the stance of policy remained mildly accommodative, the Board decided to hold the cash rate unchanged at its February meeting while continuing to monitor how these various factors evolve over the period ahead".

Febuary 2004 Statement on Monetary Policy

There was recent talk (before McFarlane) of the RBA moving to a "nuetral" rate and speculation that such a rate could be anywhere in the 5.50 - 6.00% band.

McFarlane and Stevens have just articulated this.

I smelled something fishy as soon as I saw this:

Originally posted by ocean view
Seems some of us are not alone. John Edwards from Residex annnounced today that he predicts no interest rate rise until 2005.


If I were the CEO of a company whose core business was intricately linked to (a complimentary good of) property investment, then I too would be talking down rates (and hence talking up the property market).

Think about it...

Interest rate rises > less demand for real estate (the "boom" is over) > less demand for Residex's services.

That is pretty simple economics to me.

MB
 
Pitt st

Yes agree with the meaning of increases however.......I know John Edward'S pretty well..

He actually prides himself in getting the predictions right!!!
He is an honest guy,,, & He gets most of his business by corporate now,,so rate increases will not effect him as much..

John is dam good at what he does & would be sitting along side me in a room if I hired the top 3 in the country to attend a meeting....

I would like a rise right now ,,,for stratigic reasons... But I could not see the rates hold high for a long period????????

To me it can not be allowed to happen??? Market is a mixed kettle of fish... (outside Sth east queensland of course) lol



OV
 
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