Tenants threatening tribunal

Tenants not paying rent. They were behind, did all relevent paperwork and gave the right times to remedy etc... They paid $600 of $1050 due, I gave in writing a 12 day extension (both parties signed).

It's the day before $850 is due as per the agreement, final due date. After today they get a notice to leave.

Tenants then send me a text message this morning saying that one of them has cut themselves when they slipped on a window handle while trying to open the window and have cut their hand as they smashed the glass.

The window is in a kitchen, it's in an old workers cottage. Tenants are complaining that it isn't safety glass and now say they are going to take the matter to tribunal as the house is unsafe and therefore shouldn't have to pay rent.

As it's not a new build but a pre existing old house safety glass is not required in the kitchen as they didn't have safety glass to put in back then and from my knowledge you aren't required to rip out all the old windows in a queenslander/workers cottage and replace with safety glass just for the sake of it.

Tenant also said the house was unsafe due to a possum getting in and a leak in the bathroom ceiling. Both issues were only raised 2 weeks ago and we fixed both issues straight away.

Property is in Queensland.

I'm trying to be diplomatic at this stage. I don't think it helps anything to send angry messages etc...

I'm wondering how you reckon all of this will play out?

Thanks

Tim

My understanding is that safety glass does not need to be retrofitted, but any repairs or replacement must be done under current standards.

see Hunt v Roads and Traffic Authority of NSW & Anor [2010] NSWDC 88
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/dcjud...f2dc811e381a3cbdca25772800056fcd?opendocument

Or a SMH article about the case may be easier reading:
http://news.domain.com.au/domain/ho...vestors-and-rental-agents-20100922-15m7i.html

It sounds like their cut is only minor.

Best to seek legal advice as it might be worthwhile gathering evidence now to prevent an exaggerated claim later.

Sounds like you have scored some great tenants.
Where is the property located?

You don't need to change old windows to safety glass "just because".

It sounds like they are getting their "the dog ate my homework" story ready to try to persuade the tribunal that they should not have to pay up or should not be asked to leave.

I believe they don't have a leg to stand on, but that doesn't mean you won't have a rough ride ahead. Do you have a PM? (I'm guessing not insofar as you say "you" issued a notice.)

I would just go ahead and issue the notices at the appropriate times and let the tribunal decide. Document everything, times and dates, texts... everything.

Both times my parents went to tribunal they won. I know that may be unusual as many people on here say the opposite, but truth won out both times with my parents. The tribunal "judge" wasn't swayed at all by the tenants' lame attempts to get their own way.

Good luck!

Hi Tim86, I would be surprised if they pay you any money today. Past experience tells me that they maybe having money issues and looking for excuses not to pay you. Please ensure you document all conversations, repairs done, agreements etc with them as you will end up in the Tribunal if they don't move out. As for the window, windows dont just break by themselves, I would make it their responsibility to fix.

Fun times ahead I think. Been talking over text msg today so at least it's documented. Good idea to document repairs too so they can't say I never addressed their issues.

Tenant is saying they will pay half the rent owing this week. I said I would repair the window and cover those costs. Let's face it if they don't pay their rent they won't pay for the repairs anyway.

They are now saying they don't want to go to tribunal.

In my mind it's not worth the hassle anyway. Their tenancy agreement is up in Nov I think. So hopefully we can just ride it out until then. But I suspect it will all probably end at the tribunal regardless.

Tenant did mention it was the same hand that he had previously cut badly with a band saw five years ago. My guess is that his hand doesn't function 100% so he slipped and hurt it again.

By they way they are getting $750 per week from the dole. Makes you feel great when they get your tax money and then they turn around and do this. Rent is only $350 per week and they still can't manage it.

Oh wells the joys of property investment.

Have you given them notice to leave?

In future, you can get rent paid directly to you from Centrelink . I don't know how it is set up but heard if a few landlords doing it.

Tim86 said:

Fun times ahead I think. Been talking over text msg today so at least it's documented. Good idea to document repairs too so they can't say I never addressed their issues.

Tenant is saying they will pay half the rent owing this week. I said I would repair the window and cover those costs. Let's face it if they don't pay their rent they won't pay for the repairs anyway.

They are now saying they don't want to go to tribunal.

In my mind it's not worth the hassle anyway. Their tenancy agreement is up in Nov I think. So hopefully we can just ride it out until then. But I suspect it will all probably end at the tribunal regardless.

Tenant did mention it was the same hand that he had previously cut badly with a band saw five years ago. My guess is that his hand doesn't function 100% so he slipped and hurt it again.

By they way they are getting $750 per week from the dole. Makes you feel great when they get your tax money and then they turn around and do this. Rent is only $350 per week and they still can't manage it.

Oh wells the joys of property investment.

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We get these type of tenants all the time.
Fix and repair what is required.
If you do need to attend tribunal, make sure you can produce where it states you are not required to have safety glass.
Issue notices and get them out asap.
Lodge any outstanding arrears from the bond.

I'd still be following all avenues to get them out, as soon as you ease up they will take advantage of you again.

Terry_w said:

see Hunt v Roads and Traffic Authority of NSW & Anor [2010] NSWDC 88
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/dcjud...f2dc811e381a3cbdca25772800056fcd?opendocument

Or a SMH article about the case may be easier reading:
http://news.domain.com.au/domain/ho...vestors-and-rental-agents-20100922-15m7i.html

It sounds like their cut is only minor.

Best to seek legal advice as it might be worthwhile gathering evidence now to prevent an exaggerated claim later.

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Isn't the distinction (one of them) between this case and the earlier ruling in Jones v Bartlett - where no liability was found - that in this instance, the glass *had* been replaced in modern times, and they'd not used safety glass in the repair?

My reading of Hunt is that if there'd been no repairs conducted, it may well have followed Jones. (Both because the property owner could credibly claim not to realise that the glass wasn't safety glass, and because there'd've been no non-compliant repair.) Would you agree, Terry?

kathryn d said:

If you do need to attend tribunal, make sure you can produce where it states you are not required to have safety glass.

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It may not help. Liability was found in Hunt on the basis that previous breakages of glass panes in the home suggested there was a risk of harm - i.e. previous incidents made the property owner aware that there was non-safety glass fitted. The court found that a reasonable response to that discovery would be to have all the home's glass inspected (which wasn't done), which would likely have resulted in a recommendation to replace any non-safety glass, and the Court felt such a recommendation should have been accepted by a responsible property owner.

The property manager was found 75% responsible for having had a handyman replace the glass - rather than a glazier - and for not having ordered or recommended aforementioned inspection.

So my reading of Hunt - as a law student, not a lawyer - is that if you know you have non-safety glass and don't replace it, you are at real risk of being found liable, whether it's a statutory requirement or not. (Note distinction between statutory and common law obligations.)

Likewise, PMs should now only be getting glass replaced by glaziers.

tim86, here is my experiences,

generally, the tribunal sides with the tenant unless its absolutely ridiculuous or not reasoanble,

eg I had my tenant walk out 2 months into a 12 month lease because they reckon the gap underneath the door was too big or small, and a few other minor things,

Case was adjourned for them to provide evidence, which isnt going to happen because they dont have access to the house, plus there is an invoice for this being fixed, plus you dont leave a house because of something so trivial,

as for safety glass for you, unless its a new build, I doubt its a requirement,

they are just trying to be low lifes

I would suggest, not getting emotional, just treat it as a business, and ignore all silly threats, and make sure you keep their bond and get rid of them,

you will go to the tribunal, the judge should say "safety glass is not required, dont waste the courts time, DECLINED"

or something along the lines of that

Interesting matter. Has anyone gone to inspect the broken glass? Or arrange for it to be fixed?

Anyway if you want some assistance with the matter, feel free to PM me.

Thanks for all the replies. I'll be dropping around there in an hour to clear the broken glass and temporarily board up the window. Will measure it while I'm there and order some safety glass to replace the broken bit. Will look a bit silly having clear glass in one section of the casement because it's that wavey old glass that you find in Queenslanders a lot.

I'll also be putting that safety film you can buy on the rest of the kitchen windows.

I haven't issued them with a notice to leave. The problem is their tenancy finishes up at a time that works for me because I will be subdividing the block after they leave. And I'm not going to be able to find a new tenant that will take on only a two month lease. So if they don't stay there then Ill have a completely empty property for two months while I wait for the final approval of the subdivision.

So I'm in a bit of a stuck position right now.

Also apparently the guys hand has nerve damage and the doctors said they'll need to operate. For some reason he apparently refused at this stage? Don't get why he wouldn't be doing what the doctors have advised him to do.

Anyway thanks for all the help so far. Will keep you updated.

Tim86 said:

Will look a bit silly having clear glass in one section of the casement because it's that wavey old glass that you find in Queenslanders a lot.

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Decorative window film, Tim. You want something like this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/350836330334

Depending on how "wavy" the glass is you may be better to take the remnants and find a matching glass from a leadlight shop (LPL at East Brisbane is close by) or any glazier or even a demo yard to match the glass and then put a coating on all panels of the window.

We had a tenant crack a plate glass door and replaced the door with a matching 1950's style one from a demo yard. I never gave a thought to safety glass. There is no safety glass anywhere in the house and these doors were put in by my parents some time in the past 25 years downstairs to open to the yard. The room they are in is not "used" but really just an extension of the car parking and laundry area.

Anyway, we realised the replacement door was probably not safety glass only when we tried to remove the cracked glass once the door was off. We couldn't smash it. We got worried about the children in the house, couldn't see any sort of *** writing on the new glass, and assumed it was normal 1950s glass to suit the old door we bought to replace the cracked one. I was worried one of the tenants could smash the new door, which was probably going to break into shards and got quite concerned.

I googled to see if we could replace the glass with safety glass and that was going to cost around $600. Instead, I found a local company (Hemmant?) who for about $150 (from memory) come out and applied a clear film that meets Australian Safety Standards.

If you want me to dig out the name of the family company who put the coating on in situ, let me know. I'd use them again any time.

If I remember correctly you need to give tenants two months notice that you won't be offering them another lease.

INVSTOR said:

If I remember correctly you need to give tenants two months notice that you won't be offering them another lease.

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Good point, and as I'd expect from you, spot on.

QLD notice periods

Perp said:

Good point, and as I'd expect from you, spot on.

QLD notice periods

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Thanks!

My husband badly cut his hand 1.5 weeks ago. It took about 6 days for them to decide whether he would need surgery from plastic surgeon as it was bleeding every time they took bandage off up until about 6 days later. May be a similar case?