4 Rentals & 1 PPOR now im stuck

Hi all

I have attached a spreadsheet of my portfolio to hopefully make things easy to follow.

Been looking over my portfolio for a while and am stuck on ideas to move forward and what to do next. These are my ideas in no particular order.


1) To release some equity and use this to capitalize the interest and pay down my PPRO whilst waiting for more growth.

2) Somehow fund a fully furnished granny flat on Rental3 for about $120,00. Demand is high and can rent for $400 a week, anything over $170 would be positive.

3) Again release equity to purchase another $270,000 property to renovate spending $20,000 on reno and flip making $30,000.

4) Sell Rental4 use profits to buy & renovate next property and repeat. Only sad thing would be the great rental return I would lose :(

My big future project is to develop Rental2 which is currently under a rezone application. I could fit six 2x1 units on the site. This is at least two years off the cards maybe longer.

Combined house hold income $160,000

All properties Perth WA

Ideas appreciated :)
 

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  • MyPortfolio Sheet1.pdf
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Drawing on 120-130K of your available equity to purchase 2 x NRAS properties to the value of @ 400K each is one option worth considering.

Step 1
Borrow @65K from equity, to use towards NRAS 1, to the value of 400K.
The 60-65K borrowed from equity specifically covers a 10% deposit ( 40K ) Stamp Duty (@15K ) and a 10K Cash Flow Buffer for the Year 1 cash flow shortfall ( 10K is typically the difference between all expenses, and the 20% lower rental income received under NRAS, although it can be a little more or a little less depending on market rent,the interest rate you borrowed at, etc.. but 10K is "about" right in 90% of cases. )
Step 2
Borrow the balance ( 90% + LMI ) of approx 370K against the NRAS property.
The Cash Flow
So you've borrowed 435K @ 5% (ish) , meaning you have Interest Only Repayments of @ $21,750. Add about 5K for other miscellaneous expenses such as council rates, water, property management, insurances or strata ( if you purchase a unit or townhouse or villa) and it's fair to say you'd have total expenses of around $26,750. Lets call it 27K
The prevailing market rent for a $400K property might be $400 per week. Under NRAS, you'll be electing to reduce that by 20%, so you'll receive $320 per week, for a total of $16,640 per year.
The result? An "operating loss" or "cash flow loss" of just over 10K for the year. With an additional depreciation amount of 10-12 K for a brand new property, that equates to a total deduction of around 21-22K.

Even allowing for NANE apportioning , $2587.50 ( the state component- 25% of the $10,350) represents 15.55% of the $16640 of total income, so even if that percentage of your 21-22K deduction may not be claimable, you will still have generated a deductible loss of somewhere approaching 17-18K, resulting in an ATO refund of $5525 if you pay 32.5% Tax, or $6290 if you pay 37% tax, PLUS $10,350 from NRAS.

So your total combined refund (ATO + NRAS) will be in the vicinity of 16-16.5K . Your "operating loss" was just a touch over 10K, so you should pocket about 6K Tax free after the first year.

Obviously, with 2 x NRAS ( assuming the price point, interest rate, rental yields are pretty similar) you'll generate double that, for a result of approx 12K tax free. And you'll have used about 130K of equity ( 2 x 65K) to achieve it.

Redeploying the surplus tax free money to generate a multiplier effect

If you take the 12K, redeploy it onto your 190K non deductible PPOR Homeside/NAB debt, here's what you may be able to achieve... see PDF

What have you achieved over 10 years? Not bad... 20 years of interest saved. PPOR Mortgage paid off. Over 125K of accelerated equity created (plus whatever equity that was created through growth - nice... both ends of the candle are burning!) And little or no money contributed by you because the initial 65K investment of equity included 10K extra buffer and has done all the work to get you through year 1.

Beyond Year 1- it washes its own face. Remember, you just got a total refund of about 16-16.5K from the ATO and NRAS - see above. So now you set aside 10K for the 2nd years expenses, and take the 6 that's left over and redeploy it. Do it again at the end of Year 2. Rinse. repeat. Rinse. repeat, for 10 years. Totally self replenishing each year, and requires little or no monetary input from you.

What else have you achieved over 10 years? Borrowing capacity has also been significantly boosted because your non deductible debt has been aggressively reduced, which means you will have both the equity AND the borrowing capacity to continue to grow your portfolio.... and if your portfolio of properties have also shown some nice growth along the way, there's even more equity with which to fund the next deposit, stamp duty and seed costs for your next purchase....

The multiplier effect that the tax free cash flow can create is what it's about. redeployed towards debt reduction, a small amount of money ( 6K, 7K, 8K etc) can make a VERY big dent. The 125K of interest you saved is CGT free profit by the way, if you ever sell your PPOR. And with pretty much $0 out of pocket, that means you've pretty much doubled your 130K investment in 10 years, tax free- before $1 of growth has even been calculated. No supposing, assuming, speculating, promising or guesstimating what the markets will or wont do, what growth will or wont occur, etc. Just simple cash flow redeployment. take your equity. Deploy it. Generates a tax free cash flow. Reinvest the surplus funds into paying down non deductible debt FAST, and double your money tax free, even if the economy goes belly up and property doesnt move for 10 years.

Of course, growth will come. Im not suggesting it wont. Time almost always equates to growth, and NRAS buys you a LOT of time- 10 years and beyond... free. Im just pointing out that you dont need growth to survive. You dont need growth to get to the next property. You dont need growth to pay off your mortgage from the profits generated by investment properties growing. You can hold your portfolio longer, you can avoid selling and avoid CGT, and you can reap far bigger rewards over the long term, because you are paying down debt anyway. Most importanly, you can ride out a recession far better than your neighbour, who needs growth to get out alive. Even in a flat, grey, high unemployment, recession laden market... you're still crunching down your non deductible debt, boosting your borrowing capacity and have more than enough excess tax free cash flow to see off any economic calamity - and to take advantage of a depressed market and good buying opportunities. The naysayers with high gearing and completely growth reliant strategies cant say the same. 8% or 9% interest rates, a sharp rise in unemployment or external economic shock will see them in a whole lot deeper trouble than you a whole lot sooner...

Now how about those Seattle Seahawks.......
 

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Looks like your loans are P&I unless my late night fingers are hitting the wrong buttons on the calculator? Better of going interest only and redirecting the difference into your PPOR offset. This will help reduce interest payments on your PPOR whilst preserving the principal and increasing the cash buffer.

You also could look at "deposit recycling" the available equity/redraw into the 400k deposit loan against your PPOR.

I would get professional advice on #1 as interest capitilisation can be a grey area from a tax perspective.

#2 looks reasonable, #3 but hold it and in regards to #4 looks like you have enough equity to accomplish with out selling rental 4.
 
Thanks FMS and Euro73

Looked into NRAS some time back and decided against will take another look, to see whats on offer.

Deposit recycling - not heard of this, how is this achieved ??

Thanks David
 
You also could look at "deposit recycling" the available equity/redraw into the 400k deposit loan against your PPOR.

Hello FMS,
This is an interesting strategy?

Correct me if I am wrong:
I sunk $80k 17 years ago in to my 1st investment (I know, should not have done that but...), can I now take the $80k back, sink it in to my ppr and legally claim interest deductions for that?

ps...sorry if I am hijacking
Tgan
 
Correct me if I am wrong:
I sunk $80k 17 years ago in to my 1st investment (I know, should not have done that but...), can I now take the $80k back, sink it in to my ppr and legally claim interest deductions for that?

It's the use of the loan that determines deductibility, not the source. If the loan was used to generate income then it's deductible. Since a PPOR is not income producing, the loan will not be deductible. You could get the equity out to buy another IP, then it would be deductible.

I just googled "deposit recycling" and it came up with nothing relevant to investment. Can this be further explained.
 
Hi all

I have attached a spreadsheet of my portfolio to hopefully make things easy to follow.

Been looking over my portfolio for a while and am stuck on ideas to move forward and what to do next. These are my ideas in no particular order.


1) To release some equity and use this to capitalize the interest and pay down my PPRO whilst waiting for more growth.

2) Somehow fund a fully furnished granny flat on Rental3 for about $120,00. Demand is high and can rent for $400 a week, anything over $170 would be positive.

3) Again release equity to purchase another $270,000 property to renovate spending $20,000 on reno and flip making $30,000.

4) Sell Rental4 use profits to buy & renovate next property and repeat. Only sad thing would be the great rental return I would lose :(

My big future project is to develop Rental2 which is currently under a rezone application. I could fit six 2x1 units on the site. This is at least two years off the cards maybe longer.

Combined house hold income $160,000

All properties Perth WA

Ideas appreciated :)


Some points

1. Why do you have redraw funds showing on the loans? If this is what you could potentially redraw up to 80% then no problem, but if you have been paying down investment loans while you have non deductible debt then you are throwing money away.

2. How about rates? You are probably paying too much in interest rate

3. What do you mean by capitalising interest - don't do this without tax advice

4. Which one would have the least CGT if sold?
Which one is the worst performer.

If you sold either of the above how long would it take you to recoup the costs with interest saved as a result?
 
Morning 7DD4,


160K income and stuck on four....sounds about right for the average investor.


Looking at your table, your biggest problem is exactly the same as all the other investors who come up against the same wall you are at, you chose to buy loss making boxes.


The equity you have is thin, but OK....but that's not helping you.


Your predicament is the same as all the other residential investor out there in residential investor land. Your Tenants simply don't pay you enough to keep the portfolio's head above water when only bank interest is taken into account, let alone outgoings on your 5 title deeds.


You're missing a column....outgoings. Pop in the costs of { council rates, water rates, insurances, land tax, maintenance, PM fees } and it will very quickly become apparent why your 160K income {minus income tax, minus living costs etc} isn't enough to prop up the extra costs your property portfolio incurs that you haven't listed.


When I say "isn't enough", I mean isn't enough to convince the lending institutions to lend you more.


Some folks with higher incomes than you get stuck on 5 or 6. Some on lower incomes than you get stuck on 2 or 3. You, along with them, all get stuck for exactly the same reason. You are all buying boxes that attract a certain type of Tenant who refuses to pay you enough rent to actually make any decent cashflows.

  • Not paying enough to cover the mortgage is typical.
  • Paying enough to cover the mortgage but not the outgoings as well is rare.
  • Paying enough to cover the total cost of holding the asset is rarer still.
  • Paying enough to actually make some cash is very rare.


Have a squiz at what you are buying. Repeating the same will likely get you the same result.
 
HI Terry

Thank you for your response

1. Yep the redraw funds showing on the loans is what I could redraw up to 80%.

2. The interest rates? I leave this up to my broker. I'm confident he's getting the best deal for us. All loans are interest only.

3. Capitalising interest -Yep I have taken advise from my accountant.

4. Which one would have the least CGT if sold?- Not looked into this, but thanks for pointing this out, will have a chat with my accountant.

5. The worst performer is hard to tell all have had good rental and capital growth on all :

Rental1 - Mindarie Perth Best House, but now I think about the location it's only more desirable because its closer to the beach, and a more affluent suburb. But this don't make it a better performer.

Rental2 - Padbury Perth Worst house, closet to the city, on a rezone block waiting for development.

Rental3 - Joondalup Perth Good location looking into possible granny flat construction out back to increase cash flow.

Rental4 - Kinross Perth Newest property April 2013.

If I sold Rental4 Kinross I would :
save $20,000 interest a year
Get my $80,000 deposit back
Sell for $130,000 more than I paid for it 1 year ago (need to speak to accountant to about tax)

:confused::rolleyes::confused::rolleyes:

Again thanks for the questions. These have help me think about my portfolio and investment technique.

I now have a few questions to ask myself
1) If I sold rental4 what would be the advantages + disadvantages ?

2) What type of investment do I need to buy to allow me not to hit the cash flow wall ?
 
Morning 7DD4,


160K income and stuck on four....sounds about right for the average investor.


Looking at your table, your biggest problem is exactly the same as all the other investors who come up against the same wall you are at, you chose to buy loss making boxes.


The equity you have is thin, but OK....but that's not helping you.


Your predicament is the same as all the other residential investor out there in residential investor land. Your Tenants simply don't pay you enough to keep the portfolio's head above water when only bank interest is taken into account, let alone outgoings on your 5 title deeds.


You're missing a column....outgoings. Pop in the costs of { council rates, water rates, insurances, land tax, maintenance, PM fees } and it will very quickly become apparent why your 160K income {minus income tax, minus living costs etc} isn't enough to prop up the extra costs your property portfolio incurs that you haven't listed.


When I say "isn't enough", I mean isn't enough to convince the lending institutions to lend you more.


Some folks with higher incomes than you get stuck on 5 or 6. Some on lower incomes than you get stuck on 2 or 3. You, along with them, all get stuck for exactly the same reason. You are all buying boxes that attract a certain type of Tenant who refuses to pay you enough rent to actually make any decent cashflows.

  • Not paying enough to cover the mortgage is typical.
  • Paying enough to cover the mortgage but not the outgoings as well is rare.
  • Paying enough to cover the total cost of holding the asset is rarer still.
  • Paying enough to actually make some cash is very rare.


Have a squiz at what you are buying. Repeating the same will likely get you the same result.

Morning Dazz

Thanks for looking over my portfolio. I have read plenty of you post and really appreciate your advise.

Yep looking at what i'v been buying they are all negative geared properties all in the same state all within 20km of my PPOR. Like you say typical of most average investors.

Hopefully now that I have hit the finance wall it's time to make some changes. From my mountain of magazines, property meetings, chats with other investors, and lurking around on somersoft forums these are the options.

1) Do nothing else and let my rent and capital increase.

2) Try to speed up rental income increase : granny flat, furnished, holiday rental.

3) Sell 1 property put profit back into portfolio and repeat buying properties to renovate hold and sell. But again repeating what i'v done will probably get me what i'v got.

4) Comical properties but seems to be more of a risk and bigger deposits.

5) Join up with one of these mentor groups and use their knowledge, but from what i'v read i can get just as much help on somersoft from research and help from others, and from helping others.

6) Shares :eek::eek:

7) Joint ventures.

8) Regional properties with better rental returns.

Any i'v missed ??

Cheers
Again :) David
 
I would be tempted to sell Kinross then pay cash for a granny flat. Any other proceeds I'd use later for developing Padbury. I'm looking into doing a similar plan for myself. When you have plenty of cash flow look into comical or commercial property. :)

'add- possibly pay off PPor and borrow to building granny flat. Nab said they would lend me money for granny flat, another bank told me I had to fund myself.
 
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Hi 7DD4,
If you are looking for a jv I believe that overseas business man Vincent Tan is looking to sell his current under performing interests and move into the Perth property market.
He has recently become president of the 'save the great white' campaign here in WA and is seeking like minded people to join him in his endeavours........
 
Hopefully now that I have hit the finance wall it's time to make some changes. From my mountain of magazines, property meetings, chats with other investors, and lurking around on somersoft forums these are the options.

1) Do nothing else and let my rent and capital increase.

2) Try to speed up rental income increase : granny flat, furnished, holiday rental.

3) Sell 1 property put profit back into portfolio and repeat buying properties to renovate hold and sell. But again repeating what i'v done will probably get me what i'v got.

4) Comical properties but seems to be more of a risk and bigger deposits.

5) Join up with one of these mentor groups and use their knowledge, but from what i'v read i can get just as much help on somersoft from research and help from others, and from helping others.

6) Shares :eek::eek:

7) Joint ventures.

8) Regional properties with better rental returns.

Any i'v missed ??

Cheers
Again :) David

Yep, actively increase earned income.
As you grow as an investor, so too should you grow as an individual.
The more valuable you become, the more money you can earn.
This can be fed back into your property ventures/investments if that's what you want to do.
 
Hi 7DD4,
If you are looking for a jv I believe that overseas business man Vincent Tan is looking to sell his current under performing interests and move into the Perth property market.
He has recently become president of the 'save the great white' campaign here in WA and is seeking like minded people to join him in his endeavours........


Looks like somebody has picked up on my football team

A work colleague or the husband i guess.

Been speaking to work mates about their recent purchases. Three have bought with a property group that gave a presentation at our work meeting.

Make's my blood boil with the properties they've been flogged. Just smiled and said hope things work out.

1) Townsville :eek:
2) New estate. :eek:
3) guarantee rent for 6months :eek:
4) We look after everything just sign !! :eek:

Good to see you reading somersoft.
 
I now have a few questions to ask myself
1) If I sold rental4 what would be the advantages + disadvantages ?

2) What type of investment do I need to buy to allow me not to hit the cash flow wall ?

Advantages would be:
- frees up cash
- which could be used to pay down non deductible debt
- which saves interest
- which pays off the home loan sooner
- can allow you to restructure
- implement some asset protection strategies

Disadvantages
- CGT brought forwad (would be payable eventually)
- selling costs
- buying costs on replacement property
- could you qualify for a new loan?

etc

I would also be interested to hear about your accountant's advice. Since the tax ruling in 2012 it would be very unlikely that you could capitalise interest on investment loans with the purpose of paying off your home loan sooner, and not have the ATO deny the interest.
 
Advantages would be:
- frees up cash
- which could be used to pay down non deductible debt
- which saves interest
- which pays off the home loan sooner
- can allow you to restructure
- implement some asset protection strategies

Disadvantages
- CGT brought forwad (would be payable eventually)
- selling costs
- buying costs on replacement property
- could you qualify for a new loan?

etc

I would also be interested to hear about your accountant's advice. Since the tax ruling in 2012 it would be very unlikely that you could capitalise interest on investment loans with the purpose of paying off your home loan sooner, and not have the ATO deny the interest.

Thanks Terry
Got the advise prior to tax ruling 2012. Will check again with my accountant if I decided to use this structure.

Understand all your points on advantages and disadvantages which I will take on-board.

I need to find out more about this CGT brought forward definitely another question for the accountant. My understanding (guess) is that I could delay the payment of tax on any profit from the sale of my investment till a later date ??

Cheers David
 
2) New estate. :eek:
3) guarantee rent for 6months :eek:
4) We look after everything just sign !! :eek:

Good to see you reading somersoft.

<Off topic sorry>

My workmate bought a property after someone cold called him. They came to his house, he looked at their glossy brochures and signed him up then and there. He didnt do any research at all. He trusted them. :eek: Actually I made a thread about this a few years ago. I'll go find it as I'm curious a to how the property has done over the years. Maybe its done ok. I remember asking him about what he thought the prospects of the region would be and he quoted the information straight from the sales brochures. .

I found the topic

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76117

Mum and dad did a silly thing too which I can't for the life of me understand. They went to one of those property seminar nights & bought from a property spruiker. They didn't do one iota of research either. They ended up selling at a $30,000 loss because they couldn't find a tenant after 5 months. It's too bad they didn't hang on as they missed Perths boom of all Booms. They bought in the early 2000's I think it was! :(
 
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Morning 7DD4,


160K income and stuck on four....sounds about right for the average investor.


Looking at your table, your biggest problem is exactly the same as all the other investors who come up against the same wall you are at, you chose to buy loss making boxes.


The equity you have is thin, but OK....but that's not helping you.


Your predicament is the same as all the other residential investor out there in residential investor land. Your Tenants simply don't pay you enough to keep the portfolio's head above water when only bank interest is taken into account, let alone outgoings on your 5 title deeds.


You're missing a column....outgoings. Pop in the costs of { council rates, water rates, insurances, land tax, maintenance, PM fees } and it will very quickly become apparent why your 160K income {minus income tax, minus living costs etc} isn't enough to prop up the extra costs your property portfolio incurs that you haven't listed.


When I say "isn't enough", I mean isn't enough to convince the lending institutions to lend you more.


Some folks with higher incomes than you get stuck on 5 or 6. Some on lower incomes than you get stuck on 2 or 3. You, along with them, all get stuck for exactly the same reason. You are all buying boxes that attract a certain type of Tenant who refuses to pay you enough rent to actually make any decent cashflows.

  • Not paying enough to cover the mortgage is typical.
  • Paying enough to cover the mortgage but not the outgoings as well is rare.
  • Paying enough to cover the total cost of holding the asset is rarer still.
  • Paying enough to actually make some cash is very rare.


Have a squiz at what you are buying. Repeating the same will likely get you the same result.


And this is precisely why investors need at least 1 or 2 cash flow positive properties in a portfolio, or they cant ever get ahead of the curve. Unless you are a cash buyer, portfolio's are built with equity AND cash flow and from borrowing. You cant get very far with only equity or only cash flow, and you will run out of borrowing capacity without both.

NRAS is the best CF+ property solution by far, and will also reduce debt and increase borrowing capacity if deployed intelligently. It does all those things simultaneously, and without any imposition on your available household cashflow.

Don't ONLY buy NRAS, but without SOME NRAS, unless you have a very very high income and can get past the limitations outlined above through sheer income power - there is no mathematical, lending, tax or magical solution by which you can get past , over or around the wall you have reached, other than waiting and waiting and waiting until your equity, cash flow and income levels improve. NRAS simply accelerates how soon you get there, by boosting income and reducing debt at the same time.

It's no different to a share portfolio. You cant ONLY buy low yielding stocks for growth and keep getting additional margin loans. Eventually you will run out of puff with lenders. You also need high yielding stocks in order to keep the cash flow working and to be able to continue to convince banks to advance additional margin lending to you so that you can continue to invest.
 
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